Illegal Immigration: What should we do?

[Mr. Kotter]

MODS: I'm interested in finding out what CP members think about this issue, and while I understand it's an issue ripe for political discussion.....I'd ask for it to remain in the Lounge for a couple of days, if at all possible, before moving it to its inevitable death in DC.

Fellow ChiefsPlanet posters: Can we try to have a reasonable discussion over this issue without it becoming too heated and denigrating into purely partisan demagoguery or racist insults? Please?

FWIW, I'm following the debate over immigration legislation somewhat closely, and I'm trying to figure out what the middle ground--if there is any--on the issue might be.

Thanks in advance for you opinions and posts.

Poll to follow, shortly....

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Mile High Mania

Well, in your scenario you're going to have to consider the impact that illegals have on the welfare/tax/schools/medical pieces to our society as well. There's a lot that we pay for while they're performing cheap labor to build homes and highways.

I agree. But if you expect our taxes to go down when we eliminate illegals, you're dreaming. However, the prospect of prices going up is very real. People aren't going to cut into their profit margin if they are forced to hire legals, they are going to raise prices to keep the margin stable.

You may be increasing the average wage, by forcing out cheap labor. But you're making tha tincreased wage insignificant by the inflation that will come with it.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by jspchief

When the prices of your homes and produce double, just remember that it's because you were dropping the hammer.

I know that's the argument. I just don't buy it. College kids, young and new workers, and legal immigrants could and would fill many of those jobs.

It's the SOURCE of the problem; and it's what needs to be the priority, IMHO.

[Donger]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

I know that's the argument. I just don't buy it. College kids, young and new workers, and legal immigrants could and would fill many of those jobs.

It's the SOURCE of the problem; and it's what needs to be the priority, IMHO.

Yes. Let's not forget that we have plenty of legal, native born ditch-diggers, too. The illegal labor has basically priced them out of the market.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Donger

Sorry, but that's rather simplistic.

Even in industries with high concentrations of illegal workers -- such as construction, restaurants and some parts of agriculture -- the impact isn't as great as many people think. If there weren't illegal immigrants working in construction in places like Chicago and Miami, then demand for legal workers would go up, which would mean wages would rise. But very quickly, legal workers from other parts of the country would move to those cities, and wages would go back down. The net impact on wages would be relatively modest.

That's probably the best summation I've seen.

I'm sorry but I don't agree. I work in the construction industry, and I have very real idea of the impact illegal labor has on the housing market. The cost of paying an illegal $500 per week is much lower than the cost of paying a legal $500 per week. There isn't going to be a host of freshly legalized mexicans that are willing to not only take a lower wage, but also start paying taxes on that wage.

The thing that people don't realize is a lot of these people are perfectly content working illegally, and not having to pay taxes on their wages. There are a lot of illegals that are in no hurry to be legalized.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by Saulbadguy

I'd like to know more about the naturalization process. I don't buy the line of people coming here just to suck off the governments tit. I'd be willing to wager the vast majority of illegals are here to earn money.

You are right.

Most are too afraid to take advantage, even of programs they qualify for. I've seen an extensive analysis of it at some think tank site (Brookings Institute maybe?) that basically says they create much more government revenue than they "cost."

I look for it later, if I get time....

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Donger

Yes. Let's not forget that we have plenty of legal, native born ditch-diggers, too. The illegal labor has basically priced them out of the market.

You guys over-estimate the willingness of the unemployed American to work. There a large portion of people in this world tha tdon't want these jobs, regardless of what they pay. America breeds lazy bums. Youngs adults would rather make $7 per hour flipping burgers than $12 per hour working a construction site.

The notion that there is a host of people wanting these jobs is just wrong. No one wants to be a roofer or concrete worker. It's a shitty job, and to make it worthwhile the wage would probably have to double at least.

[vailpass]

Originally Posted by jspchief

When the prices of your homes and produce double, just remember that it's because you were dropping the hammer.

And here comes the scare tactic used by the low-budget construction guys who operate on the fringe by using illegal labor.

Housing costs double? Bullshit. Who in their right mind believes this? You may very well be run out of business or be forced to change your ways but plenty of reputable home builders would survive.

The labor market would quickly adust itself to prevailing conditions once illegals were removed. Nature abhors a vacuum.

[Donger]

Originally Posted by jspchief

I'm sorry but I don't agree. I work in the construction industry, and I have very real idea of the impact illegal labor has on the housing market. The cost of paying an illegal $500 per week is much lower than the cost of paying a legal $500 per week. There isn't going to be a host of freshly legalized mexicans that are willing to not only take a lower wage, but also start paying taxes on that wage.

Prices would go up; I don't doubt that. But no where close to being double.

Originally Posted by jspchief

The thing that people don't realize is a lot of these people are perfectly content working illegally, and not having to pay taxes on their wages. There are a lot of illegals that are in no hurry to be legalized.

Of course; they're criminals. I don't like paying taxes either, but I'd rather not break the law.

[StcChief]

Originally Posted by Saulbadguy

Set up an Ellis Island type deal to allowed faster processing of immigrants. Set up certain dates throughout the year when people can legally immigrate, and adhere to those standards. Declare amnesty for all those currently in the US, however, set restrictions on what they can and can not do, and if they decide to return to Mexico, they have to come back "legally" through the "Ellis Island".

JMO - I think our friends to the South can be a huge asset rather than a burden.

near rio grande. El Paso would work

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by vailpass

And here comes the scare tactic used by the low-budget construction guys who operate on the fringe by using illegal labor.

Housing costs double? Bullshit. Who in their right mind believes this? You may very well be run out of business or be forced to change your ways but plenty of reputable home builders would survive.

The labor market would quickly adust itself to prevailing conditions once illegals were removed. Nature abhors a vacuum.

You act like only the crooks are out there using illegals. I've worked on homes that have made the cover of national magazines that probably used about 70% illegal labor. Homes that win awards and sell for millions.

You think there are people willing to roof for $500 per week? You're wrong.

[kaplin42]

I live in Los Angeles.

Why do we have have 60+ kids in our classrooms?
Why do illegal immigrants get more school loans/grants than citezens?
Why do illegal immigrants get medical treatment without having inusrance when citezens cant?
Who gets all these benefits but doesnt help pay taxes?
Who sends the money they make back to their home country instead of spending it here increasing the economy?

Yes the majority work hard, and do work that we really dont want to do. However, they are illegal. There is no argument that can support them. You want to immigrate the right way, then by all means please come on in and make yourself at home. But illegal is illegal, and it doesnt matter if you're latin, english, dutch, phillapino or asian. Do it the right way or go back your original country.

And one more thing, if you are going to wave your home countries flag and be proud of that country then by all means, stop by the immigration office and we will give you a one way ticket back there. You don't exactly win yourself much support by doing that. I have more to say on that issue, but the OP asked to keep it civil.

All in all, no amnesty, and tighter border control with armed forces.

[vailpass]

Originally Posted by Saulbadguy

I'd be interested to see how much of that welfare and medical care are provided for illegals in comparison to legal US citizens.

Even a dollar is too much.

I have a friend who works at a pharmacy here in Phoenix. She has story after story of elderly Americans asking the Pharmacist if they can purchase a half of their prescription because they can't afford the whole thing. She has an equal amount of stories of non-english speaking Mexican illegals who can walk in, ask fo a spanish-speaking employee, and get their prescriptions filled with 100% coverage from Medicaid.

You that don't live in high-population illegal immigrant cities i.e. Texas, Arizona, Denver, etc. cannot possibly grasp how heated and personal an issue this has become. Battle lines are being drawn and the future shape of our country is in the balance.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Donger

Prices would go up; I don't doubt that. But no where close to being double.



Of course; they're criminals. I don't like paying taxes either, but I'd rather not break the law.

1. Double is probably hyperbole.

2. That's why I say you have to seal the border before you do anything.

[Donger]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

You are right.

Most are too afraid to take advantage, even of programs they qualify for. I've seen an extensive analysis of it at some think tank site (Brookings Institute maybe?) that basically says they create much more government revenue than they "cost."

I look for it later, if I get time....

From CIS:

· Illegal alien households are estimated to use $2,700 a year more in services than they pay in taxes, creating a total fiscal burden of nearly $10.4 billion on the federal budget in 2002.

· Among the largest federal costs: Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

· If illegal aliens were legalized and began to pay taxes and use services like legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual fiscal deficit at the federal level would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total federal deficit of $29 billion.

· With nearly two-third of illegals lacking a high school diploma, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments — not their legal status or their unwillingness to work.

· Amnesty increases costs because illegals would still be largely unskilled, and thus their tax payments would continue to be very modest, but once legalized they would be able to access many more government services.

· The fact that legal immigrants with little schooling are a fiscal drain on federal coffers does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a drain. Many legal immigrants are highly skilled.

· Because many of the costs are due to their U.S.-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth, barring illegals themselves from federal programs will not significantly reduce costs.

· Although they create a net drain on the federal government, the average illegal household pays more than $4,200 a year in federal taxes, for a total of nearly $16 billion.

· However, they impose annual costs of more than $26.3 billion, or about $6,950 per illegal household.

· About 43 percent, or $7 billion, of the federal taxes illegals pay go to Social Security and Medicare.

· Employers do not see the costs associated with less-educated immigrant workers because the costs are spread out among all taxpayers.

[Pennywise]

Illegal Immigration: What should we do?

At least complement them on their signs.