Illegal Immigration: What should we do?

[Mr. Kotter]

MODS: I'm interested in finding out what CP members think about this issue, and while I understand it's an issue ripe for political discussion.....I'd ask for it to remain in the Lounge for a couple of days, if at all possible, before moving it to its inevitable death in DC.

Fellow ChiefsPlanet posters: Can we try to have a reasonable discussion over this issue without it becoming too heated and denigrating into purely partisan demagoguery or racist insults? Please?

FWIW, I'm following the debate over immigration legislation somewhat closely, and I'm trying to figure out what the middle ground--if there is any--on the issue might be.

Thanks in advance for you opinions and posts.

Poll to follow, shortly....

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by memyselfI

Of course you don't want to believe it...

50 year old college professors from Ireland don't make the same kind of impact as a poster child as do 'person of Hispanic heritages' who swim rivers and climb walls...

but it's true.

The problem is you were restating my point as being half of all illegal people NOW entering the country are doing so while legal. That is not what I said. My point was that there are people here who've been here anywhere from 1 month to 40 years who were initally legal and never left when their visa expired. That is an enormous time span impacting literally millions of people.

Of course to know this you have to accept that not all illegal aliens are criminals to start with...something that some people don't want to admit. They'd rather lump everyone into one category and feel like they've fairly addressed the problem.

As far as Mr. Kotter's poll, there is a fundamental problem with having to prove your employment status. Many people are not working legally because it's illegal to do so. And which of their employers are going to step up and vouge for them and say 'yes, I've employed Jose for 15 years, where do I send the check for my fine?'

Before you start painting me with such broad strokes, I suggest you read my posts and get an understanding of where I fall on the issue.

And I know you're talking about people that have been here since whenever. But when they are coming into the country illegally at the rate of 3 million per year, that means 3 million of your "here on expired visas" have to be here too. Your claim that half the illegals here fall in that category basically means there are 10s of millions of those people, and considering we only let 800k of those type of people in per year, you'd be implying that every single one of them stayed for the last 15-20 years. It's just highly unlikely. The numbers don't add up. Your statement of "half" is significant hypebole.

[memyselfI]

Originally Posted by jspchief

Before you start painting me with such broad strokes, I suggest you read my posts and get an understanding of where I fall on the issue.

And I know you're talking about people that have been here since whenever. But when they are coming into the country illegally at the rate of 3 million per year, that means 3 million of your "here on expired visas" have to be here too. Your claim that half the illegals here fall in that category basically means there are 10s of millions of those people, and considering we only let 800k of those type of people in per year, you'd be implying that every single one of them stayed for the last 15-20 years. It's just highly unlikely. The numbers don't add up. Your statement of "half" is significant hypebole.

I'd like to know where you are getting your '3 million illegal immigrants per year' statistic. Here is a website that indicates 3 million immigrants might come here but that is the TOTAL. The actual number of illegals is less. Of course, these are Census numbers so what do they know.

Between January 2000 and March 2005, 7.9 million new immigrants (legal and illegal) settled in the country, making it the highest five-year period of immigration in American history.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back1405.html

[Luzap]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

All good points. Your posts here, and the thread in general, is causing me to seriously re-evaluate my stance on this issue. I mean, everything you've said makes a lot of sense in my view. You mind if I ask, what do you do? You seem very "tuned in" to the whole situation.

In my Planet experience, with all the political "talk" I've had (probably about half of my 26K posts), I've only had one other issue where I've really felt I learned something that changed my mind on an issue (decriminalization/legalization of MJ.) This is the second.

Thank you for your kind words...

It's ironic, but I just finished a post in the 'What Do You Do' thread. I won't repeat it here.

I don't claim any special certification but because of circumstances, I do feel closer to the issue than most.

My viewpoints come from a combination of:

Traveling extensively in Latin American countries.
Speaking Spanish as a second language.
Studying history.
Being married to a woman I met in South America, and now having family there.
Having owned a business (restaurant) that hires lower paying positions.
Being on the 'inside' of the Latin American culture here in Texas.
Being a student of politics.
etc.

Luz
no credentials...

[BucEyedPea]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

I'm not at all for easy or complete amnesty. And I agree, if they've broken the law....there should be consequences. But with 11-12 million already here, what do we do....? Deport them all? Wow; that seems expensive and harsh. Build a fence and guard it closely? Maybe; but that's gonna be very expensive to maintain, and it may not even really work. Drop the hammer on businesses who hire illegals? Lots of people seem opposed to that, and it would drive up inflation in some sectors in some areas....although the extent is really hard to predict?

So what do we do?

I agree about rule of law....but maybe it's the law that needs to be looked at closely and changed to accomodate the reality of the situation? As for those who've already broken the law.....how about some kind of plea bargain of sorts?

Invade Mexico and annex it!

Seriously, I posted earlier we need to raise quotas to help labor shortages which will make it possible for them to come in legally....but to immigrate, not be here temporarily for the most part anyway. Businesses should be taxed to pay for the gov't labor involved including checking for subversion and criminals.

Really, though there is a price-tag with any solution.
I don't think long-term we can afford to try and be as cheap as we can about it.

Question: I have to wonder how many Ameicans would donate to pay to round 'em up and deport them since we are so generous. I mean if we could raise more than 5x the amount for the Sumatran tsunami victims voluntarily, well beyond what the Europeans were coerced to give thru taxation that tells me a lot....because the majority of Americans do not like this.

Additionally, fines on the business that hire them should help to offset enforcement.

The thing is middle-road or full amnesty....they're gonna just keep comin' until we have another middle-of-the-road solution or another amnesty, and so on and on and on....if we're never going to put our foot down and mean business. That sends a message imo.

And again, I see this invasion as an act of war...the real one we should have been fighting, as opposed to restructuring power and regimes in the ME, that are NO THREAT to us.

[Luzap]

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

Invade Mexico and annex it!

Really, though there is a price-tag with any solution.
I don't think long-term we can afford to try and be as cheap as we can about it.

Question: I have to wonder how many Ameicans would donate to pay to round 'em up and deport them since we are so generous. I mean if we could raise more than 5x the amount of the Sumatran tsunami victims, well beyond what the Europeans were coerced to give thru taxation that tells me a lot....because the majority of Americans do not like this.

Additionally, fines on the business that hire them should help to offset enforcement.

The thing is middle-road or full amnesty....they're gonna just keep comin' until we have another middle-of-the-road solution or another amnesty and on and on and on....if we're never going to put our foot down and mean business. That sends a message imo.

And again, I see this invasion as an act of war...the real one we should have been fighting as opposed to restructuring power and regimes in the ME that are not THREAT to us.

Just for arguments sake, how would you react when you got fined for hiring someone that had a valid drivers licence, SS#, and Green Card?

All of you that are claiming all this hiring is being done for greed do not, imo, appreciate the problem.

Luz
BTW, if you don't hire them because they 'might' be illegal, you're setting yourself up for a discrimination suit...

[BucEyedPea]

Originally Posted by Luzap

Just for arguments sake, how would you react when you got fined for hiring someone that had a valid drivers licence, SS#, and Green Card?

All of you that are claiming all this hiring is being done for greed do not, imo, appreciate the problem.

Luz
BTW, if you don't hire them because they 'might' be illegal, you're setting yourself up for a discrimination suit...

I would think that should be deal with as any fraud....the victim is innocent and the person committing fraud prosecuted for it.

Well I don't necessarily agree with a lot of those discrimination suits anyway.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by Luzap

Thank you for your kind words...

It's ironic, but I just finished a post in the 'What Do You Do' thread. I won't repeat it here.

I don't claim any special certification but because of circumstances, I do feel closer to the issue than most.

My viewpoints come from a combination of:

Traveling extensively in Latin American countries.
Speaking Spanish as a second language.
Studying history.
Being married to a woman I met in South America, and now having family there.
Having owned a business (restaurant) that hires lower paying positions.
Being on the 'inside' of the Latin American culture here in Texas.
Being a student of politics.
etc.

Luz
no credentials...

Actually those, are among the best credentials.

[Luzap]

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

I would think that should be deal with as any fraud....the victim is innocent and the person committing fraud prosecuted for it.

Well I don't necessarily agree with a lot of those discrimination suits anyway.

BucEyedPea,

With all respect, I don't think you realize how many illegal aliens have papers. Fining employers doesn't work.

Luz
i don't agree with immigration laws or many discrimination suits either. but it doesn't change the reality...

[BucEyedPea]

Originally Posted by Luzap

BucEyedPea,

With all respect, I don't think you realize how many illegal aliens have papers. Fining employers doesn't work.

Y'er right I don't. I don't care how many do either. I was speaking more on principle. You may or may not have a point. I'm just discussing anyway and have NOT done a real lot of reading on this issue from that angle anyway.JMO.

I actually prefer deportion and land mines the most anyway.

Luz

i don't agree with immigration laws or many discrimination suits either. but it doesn't change the reality...

Glad to hear it.

BTW...this issue seems to come down to "choose your poison."

[journeyscarab]

Si, Se puede!

[dirk digler]

This is a subject I have been passionate about for the last 5+ years and having been involved in hiring illegal or supposed illegal immigrants I feel I have a pretty good insight on the subject.

I worked as a Restaurant Manager in Overland Park, KS for 3 years and let me tell you it was EXTREMELY hard to hire American workers. Johnson County is one of the wealthiest counties in the US and the kids that restaurants depend on to work during the summer aren't available because their parents are rich and so they don't have to work. So we started hiring Hispanics for these jobs and at one time 80% of my crew was Hispanic. Now alot of them had papers and SSN cards and we had a process to verify their numbers but most them admitted in private they were illegal but after a while I didn't care because I needed the help.

With that being said I believe we need to get this huge problem under control. Here is my proposal:

1. Build a high-tech fence and defend with the military. This is a National Security issue first and foremost. I like Donger's idea of 2 warning shots and then a kill shot. We needed to stop the bleeding 5 years ago.

2. STOP ALL LEGAL Immigration for 5-7 years while we get this under control.

3. DO NOT actively pursue any illegal immigrants in the US right now unless they have committed crimes other than just being illegal. If the INS or the police stumble upon illegal immigrants we will deport them.

4. Start a National ID card program.

5. Stop all government services to illegals and if they can't produce legal documents then they will be deported.

[BucEyedPea]

Those are excellent solutions Diggler....all except the National ID Card...they could probably fake those too. Anyhow, the NIDcard opens up other horrors for Americans.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by dirk digler

I worked as a Restaurant Manager in Overland Park, KS for 3 years and let me tell you it was EXTREMELY hard to hire American workers. Johnson County is one of the wealthiest counties in the US and the kids that restaurants depend on to work during the summer aren't available because their parents are rich and so they don't have to work. So we started hiring Hispanics for these jobs and at one time 80% of my crew was Hispanic. Now alot of them had papers and SSN cards and we had a process to verify their numbers but most them admitted in private they were illegal but after a while I didn't care because I needed the help.

This is what I've been trying to tell people, and they simply refuse to believe it. Anyone that's had to deal with hiring at low wage levels understands. People look at unemployment rates and think there are lines of unemployed Americans that simply can't get jobs, when the reality is 75% of those people are unemployable or simply don't want a job, and the other 25% are selective about which job they'll work. And it's reached a point where it's no longer about cheap labor in most states. Employers are paying good wages to anyone.

[Rausch]

Originally Posted by jspchief

Yea, I'm sure the consumer doesn't have any say in that. They'd much rather pay more for a service provided by legals, right? The reason this has gone on at the level it has is because people are too busy reaping the rewards of this cheap labor to be legitimately outraged by it.

No offense, but you're ingnorant on the subject, and your redass act doesn't add much to this thread.

Not including the consumer greed factor was only telling 1/2 the story.

But again, we're talking greed.

Do I really need to subjugate someone else to save 45% on oranges?

And I'm not really "redass" over the people just the lack anyone trying to implement a reasonable solution. It's either "shoot 'em dead" or "let everyone in."

It's not going to work.

And by look of millions marching I don't think they're eactly happy with the existing arrangement either...

[Hydrae]

Having read 210 posts on this issue it seems to me that the biggest issue most people have with illegal aliens has to do with the amount of tax generated money that is spent to "support" them whether it be schools, welfare, food stamps, medical costs, etc.

Is this a fair statement?