Illegal Immigration: What should we do?

[Mr. Kotter]

MODS: I'm interested in finding out what CP members think about this issue, and while I understand it's an issue ripe for political discussion.....I'd ask for it to remain in the Lounge for a couple of days, if at all possible, before moving it to its inevitable death in DC.

Fellow ChiefsPlanet posters: Can we try to have a reasonable discussion over this issue without it becoming too heated and denigrating into purely partisan demagoguery or racist insults? Please?

FWIW, I'm following the debate over immigration legislation somewhat closely, and I'm trying to figure out what the middle ground--if there is any--on the issue might be.

Thanks in advance for you opinions and posts.

Poll to follow, shortly....

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by ChiefsLV

Someone tell me how building a wall to prevent people from illegally entering the country is racist.

This is my take:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racist
Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
Function: noun
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

Although I do not consider it, racist, in the abstract, or necessarily racist....certainly, one can make the argument, that since the wall would be targeting Mexicans, the motivation for building such a wall is inherently racist. Unless of course, you would build a wall on the Canadian border as well....or at a minimum take comparable measures to stop ALL illegal immigration, and not just Latino immigration.

Where did you ancestors come from (mostly)?

[ChiefsLV]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

This is my take:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racist
Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
Function: noun
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

Although I do not consider it, racist, in the abstract, or necessarily racist....certainly, one can make the argument, that since the wall would be targeting Mexicans, the motivation for building such a wall is inherently racist. Unless of course, you would build a wall on the Canadian border as well....or at a minimum take comparable measures to stop ALL illegal immigration, and not just Latino immigration.

Where did you ancestors come from (mostly)?

But Canadians aren't illegally crossing the border in droves on a daily basis. I guess it all comes down to whether you want the US to enforce immigration law or not. It's not really fair to immigrants trying to get in from other countries to allow Mexicans to come over and stay simply because of the geographic advantage they have.

My ancestors came from Russia/France in the 1900's.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by ChiefsLV

But Canadians aren't illegally crossing the border in droves on a daily basis. I guess it all comes down to whether you want the US to enforce immigration law or not. It's not really fair to immigrants trying to get in from other countries to allow Mexicans to come over and stay simply because of the geographic advantage they have.

My ancestors came from Russia/France in the 1900's.

I understand what you are saying, and agree to a point. If we block off the Mexican boder though.....the resourceful and determined ones will find away around an expensive investment by the U.S. And I'd be very surprised if illegal crossings didn't increase at the Canadian border as a result. What then?

Russian/French.....cool. I was just curious because, for example, as a Irish-German I'm aware of many racist sorts policies and actions my ancestors faced. Unfortunately, it was part of the price they paid; but I just don't think it was right, obviously.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by ChiefsLV

But Canadians aren't illegally crossing the border in droves on a daily basis.

No, but Pakistanis and other middle easterners are crossing the Canadian border.

Just this week, a Canadian border crossing ring was busted. They dealt mostly in smuggling people from the ME.

It's not just about illegal workers. It's about secure borders. It does us no good to screen flights when someone can pay $1k to sneak across the border from another country.

I don't believe it's the slightest bit racist. People that charge as much are just trying to take advantage of the emotion that comes with those accusations. It's no more racist than putting a speed limit in a black neighborhood... sure it mostly affects blacks, but that's a by product of the law, not the intent.

[DomerNKC]

we need to annex mexico.

[dirk digler]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

I appreciate your passion for the subject, and I must say, my intial reactions and thoughts on the subject fall not to far from yours. I just don't know that your approach will work, UNLESS we also target those businesses hiring illegal aliens with fines and punishment for future violations. Cleaning up the mess, without addressing the cause would only ensure it would happen again down the road. And that leads us back to who's gonna fill those jobs, that you, jsp, and others seem convinced that Americans apparently do not want. Because I don't know if it would fly, or even if it's wise:

1. Fence sounds good, but will it really work? Or will illegals just find a way around our very expensive "band-aid" as some suggest?

2. Stopping legal immigration for 5-7 years sounds a bit harsh....and it punishes people who've been waiting in the "legal" line for the actions of illegals. It just strikes me as, almost Anti-American....

3. Deport those illegals "found," but don't look for them? I don't understand that one, I guess...

4. National ID? I'd be for it, but that's one that will be tough to sell to many libertarian types for fear they would be misused.

5. I don't support government programs for illegals, but deportation of those who've lived here for many years and held productive jobs seems harsh.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be consequences. I'd support fines, payment of taxes they've neglected, and a rigorous naturalization process. Economically and realistically, deporting 11-12 million illegals seems unneccesary, expensive, and unwise given the potential economic fall-out that you yourself allude to.

Rob I will explain a little better but my positions are all National Security related and IMO that trumps most everything else.

1. Building a high tech fence and the US Military guarding the border will instantly stop 98% of illegal crossings and drug trafficking IMO. We need to stop the real problem which is the illegal crossings. IMO this should be the first priority because without it then the problem will always exist.

2. I believe we should stop all legal immigration because we can't handle the load we have now and we have no idea who is in this country or not. Until we have a better grasp shut down any immigration.

3. Basically what I am saying here is not actively have a policy to pursue and round up illegal immigrants unless they are wanted for crimes committed in the US. What I don't want and which is impossible is to go round up 12 million illegals and deport them. IMO that would wreck the economy. But at the same time if INS or police come across illegals then they need to deport them. IMO punishing small businesses is not the answer.

4. I agree with you and I am not totally sold on it but it could be a start.

5. This one really pisses me off. Not only do you and I and the rest of the country have to support dead beat losers who can't get a job but now we have to support Non-****ing Americans with my tax dollars. **** that shit. These illegals get better medical care than most Americans do and that is not right. Also from what I understand in CA if an illegal wants to go to college they can and don't have to pay out of state tuition but if I wanted to send my kid to college in CA then I would. Have ****ing messed up is that?

[Halfcan]

Draft all aliens and ship their asses to Iraq-solve two problems at once.

[Luzap]

Originally Posted by ChiefsLV

My ancestors came from Russia/France in the 1900's.

Gentlemen (and ladies)...

The biggest problem we face are our own immigration policies and laws

There is a very good chance that the above poster would not be here if we had the same immigration policy in the 1900s that we have now.

Think about it

We should not be fearful or xenophobic about allowing immigrants in. Yes, give them background checks. Yes, restrict immigration from certain parts of the world (like the Middle East), but realize that people that are willing to risk everything and move to a new country and a new culture tend to be the best and the brightest. Not necessarily the richest or best educated, but they are definitely people with initiative that are willing to work hard, take risks, and do whatever it takes to improve their family's future.

We don't have enough of that ethic in the US

Iowanian (rightly so) is complaining about the wellfare state that we currently have. Did it ever occur to anybody that these people (especially their kids) need competition and examples? If you want to bring back the American work ethic ~ hard work, a handshake deal ~ understand that this reputation was created by immigrants.

If you want to get serious about immigration...

Then let's stop all this silly talk about walls and fix the source of the problem. Insist that our entire immigration policy be revamped to the idea of 'open' immigration. Most national politicians know this, it's just not politically popular to talk about it.

Luz

don't be what the politicians call 'sheep' ~ think it through and make them face the real issues...

[dirk digler]

Originally Posted by banyon

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I believe that I differ from both of you on this matter.

Digler's compaint is that "all of us in Johnson County are too rich to find anybody to do our minimum wage work "?

I understand that in some industries there might be a valid problem finding available labor, but not this case. Here's a novel idea: since you are so f***ing rich, why don't you pay enough for workers in less fortunate areas of KC to commute into your area of town?

Oh I know why.

unmitigated $$$GREED$$$.

Banyon I started out paying new hires $8.50-$10 an hour to work but I had no takers from JoCo kids but the Hispanics loved what I payed which was alot more than some of the other restaurants in that area were starting out at.

I also had a couple of Hispanics that lived in KCK drive in and worked at the restaurant too.

IMO I feel that was reasonable pay rate.

[Rausch]

Originally Posted by ChiefsLV

But Canadians aren't illegally crossing the border in droves on a daily basis. I guess it all comes down to whether you want the US to enforce immigration law or not. It's not really fair to immigrants trying to get in from other countries to allow Mexicans to come over and stay simply because of the geographic advantage they have.

I'll take 12,000 legal Mexicans before 1 legal frog.

Originally Posted by ChiefsLV

My ancestors came from Russia/France in the 1900's.

Wow.

Dude, I am so sorry...

[dirk digler]

Originally Posted by Luzap

Gentlemen (and ladies)...

The biggest problem we face are our own immigration policies and laws

There is a very good chance that the above poster would not be here if we had the same immigration policy in the 1900s that we have now.

Think about it

We should not be fearful or xenophobic about allowing immigrants in. Yes, give them background checks. Yes, restrict immigration from certain parts of the world (like the Middle East), but realize that people that are willing to risk everything and move to a new country and a new culture tend to be the best and the brightest. Not necessarily the richest or best educated, but they are definitely people with initiative that are willing to work hard, take risks, and do whatever it takes to improve their family's future.

We don't have enough of that ethic in the US

Iowanian (rightly so) is complaining about the wellfare state that we currently have. Did it ever occur to anybody that these people (especially their kids) need competition and examples? If you want to bring back the American work ethic ~ hard work, a handshake deal ~ understand that this reputation was created by immigrants.

If you want to get serious about immigration...

Then let's stop all this silly talk about walls and fix the source of the problem. Insist that our entire immigration policy be revamped to the idea of 'open' immigration. Most national polititions know this, it's just not politically popular to talk about it.

Luz

don't be what the polititions call 'sheep' ~ think it through and make them face the real issues...

It is a different world after 9/11 so to say we need opened borders is borderline treason.

[Luzap]

Originally Posted by dirk digler

It is a different world after 9/11 so to say we need opened borders is borderline treason.

I guess the 'Think it through' part of my post escaped you...

'Open Immigration' as practiced in the 1900s does not equate to 'open borders.' It is not my job to educate you ~ go look it up yourself.

It is posts like this that make me realize that the terrorists are winning. People are so scared that they will sacrifice the things that made our country great on the alter of security.

Luz
it's too bad our founding fathers weren't faced with the issues of safety over liberty and enterprise... Oh, wait a minute...

[ChiefsLV]

Originally Posted by Luzap

Gentlemen (and ladies)...

The biggest problem we face are our own immigration policies and laws

There is a very good chance that the above poster would not be here if we had the same immigration policy in the 1900s that we have now.

Think about it

We should not be fearful or xenophobic about allowing immigrants in. Yes, give them background checks. Yes, restrict immigration from certain parts of the world (like the Middle East), but realize that people that are willing to risk everything and move to a new country and a new culture tend to be the best and the brightest. Not necessarily the richest or best educated, but they are definitely people with initiative that are willing to work hard, take risks, and do whatever it takes to improve their family's future.

We don't have enough of that ethic in the US

Iowanian (rightly so) is complaining about the wellfare state that we currently have. Did it ever occur to anybody that these people (especially their kids) need competition and examples? If you want to bring back the American work ethic ~ hard work, a handshake deal ~ understand that this reputation was created by immigrants.

If you want to get serious about immigration...

Then let's stop all this silly talk about walls and fix the source of the problem. Insist that our entire immigration policy be revamped to the idea of 'open' immigration. Most national politicians know this, it's just not politically popular to talk about it.

Luz

don't be what the politicians call 'sheep' ~ think it through and make them face the real issues...

Luzap,

I think the difference here is that we're discussing illegal immigration and you're comparing it to legal immigration... The big key being that we have control over legal immigrants, i.e. background checks, etc. whereas with illegal immigration we really don't know who is in the country.

[Rausch]

Originally Posted by ChiefsLV

Luzap,

I think the difference here is that we're discussing illegal immigration and you're comparing it to legal immigration... The big key being that we have control over legal immigrants, i.e. background checks, etc. whereas with illegal immigration we really don't know who is in the country.

Exactly.

But he agrees...

[Luzap]

ChiefsLV,

Our current immigration policies are the cause of the illegal immigration problem.

Luz
isn't there an ancient chineese symbol of a serpent eating it's tail???...