Football Players think Herm is 4th Best Coach in the league - Page 3

Quesadilla Joe · 10-28-2008, 01:03 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/26/sp...rhoden.html?em

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package..._DOCUMENTS.pdf

Sports of The Times
N.F.L. Players Evaluate Their Coaches

By WILLIAM C. RHODEN
Published: October 25, 2008
What do N.F.L. players really think about the coaches for whom they play and the franchises for which they work?

Michael Conroy/Associated Press
In a survey conducted last season, N.F.L. players picked the Colts’ Tony Dungy as the coach they would most like to play for.

Outside of sound bites and manicured postgame comments, the collective thoughts of players about coaches and teams have remained a mystery. Until now.

Last season, the N.F.L. players union commissioned the Wharton Sports Business Initiative at the University of Pennsylvania to conduct an unprecedented survey of players. It was the first time players had been asked about issues related to their coaches. The survey asked players to name names, and the players overwhelmingly obliged.

Asked which active N.F.L. coaches they would most like to play for, the players picked Tony Dungy (Indianapolis Colts) followed by Lovie Smith (Chicago Bears) and Bill Belichick (New England Patriots). Herman Edwards (Kansas City Chiefs) was fourth and Mike Tomlin (Pittsburgh Steelers) fifth.

Asked to name the coaches they would least like to play for, the players named Tom Coughlin (Giants), Eric Mangini (Jets), Jon Gruden (Tampa Bay Buccaneers), Bobby Petrino (formerly of the Atlanta Falcons) and Belichick.

The naming of Belichick on both lists illustrated how players were willing to make compromises when it comes to winning.

The study is especially relevant at a time of midseason coaching changes, wide swings of performance levels from week to week and periodic episodes of player-coach confrontations.

“I think this survey is historic,” said Tukufu Zuberi, the chairman of the sociology department at Penn, who conducted the study with Camille Z. Charles, an associate sociology and education professor. “Nothing like it has ever been done before.”

Zuberi added: “You always hear sportscasters and analysts ranking teams and ranking the best coaches and what is important about being a good coach. It’s rare that the athletes themselves express their opinion. What this survey does is give the players a voice.”

A total of 1,440 players, or roughly 80 percent of those active in 2007, completed the study by the Wharton Sports Business Initiative, a research and executive think tank that is not a degree-granting program.

The players were asked questions in six major categories, including the most influential coach in their lives and the five most important attributes for a head coach. The players were also asked to identify the worst organizations in the N.F.L. (Oakland — no surprise there; Miami; Arizona; Cleveland; and Cincinnati) and the best (New England, Indianapolis, Dallas, Green Bay and Pittsburgh).

There was overwhelming common ground among the players despite their racial differences; 65 percent are African-American, 29 percent white, 3 percent Asian, 2 percent other and 1 percent Hispanic.

The good news for the N.F.L. is that 90 percent of the players said they respected their head coach, three-quarters said they trusted their head coach and 79 percent said their coach was top quality.

More than 50 percent of the players said their pro coach — not their college or high school coach — was the most influential coach in their lives.

According to the survey, the most desirable attributes in a head coach were good communication skills, followed by motivational skills, approachability, management skills and leading by example.

There were also significant differences between white and black players. For instance, respect and trust were listed by all players as crucial components for successful relationships, but white players expressed more trust and respect for their head coaches than black players.

“Who would have thought that the most important things to players is that the coach respects them?” Zuberi said. “This has a fundamental impact on the players’ attitudes toward the coaches. I didn’t expect that white players would trust and respect their coaches more than black players.”

Another distinction was that African-American players were not entirely race neutral when it came to head coaches. Race matters.

Although all players agreed on the top 10 most desirable head coaches, there were subtle differences between white and black players.

Among all players, Dungy was selected as the top coach. White players ranked Belichick second, Smith third, the Denver Broncos’ Mike Shanahan fourth and the Tennessee Titans’ Jeff Fisher fifth.

Black players ranked Smith second, Belichick third, Edwards fourth and Tomlin fifth.

Edwards was sixth among white players, and Shanahan dropped to ninth among black players. Mike Holmgren of Seattle was ranked seventh among white players and 13th among black players.

“It’s not just a question of winning, it is a question of how the players feel about these coaches,” Zuberi said.

In contrast to the mainstream workplace, black players are an overwhelming majority in the N.F.L.

This can be interpreted as a true meritocracy where the best talent prevails. On the other hand, power is unequally distributed as one moves up the ladder. Six of the 32 head coaches are African-American, and the presence of African-Americans becomes more rare the higher one goes in management.

The black football-playing majority must answer to a predominantly white power structure, which includes team executives and owners.

Given the disparity in trust and respect between blacks and whites, the study suggested a new model is needed for franchises that hope to get the most out of their players. This means going beyond simply relying on a cluster of veteran players to maintain order in the locker room. They must hire and promote respected African-Americans and place them into positions of power and authority.

Communication also requires a franchise to ask itself tough questions: Who can get the most out of players? Who can best understand players? Who has the greatest insight? Who can best speak to the culture?

It was no coincidence that black players listed four African-American coaches among their top five.

“These are just the players’ opinions,” Zuberi said of the study, “but we haven’t been listening to those opinions.

“A coach’s ability to coach should be balanced against his ability to gain the trust and respect of the players. Players are expected to respect and trust the coach. The coach needs to do the same for the players.”

•

The study was intended to be the first in a series of annual player surveys that will examine a variety of aspects of N.F.L. franchises — including the front office and ownership.

N.F.L. players have long been viewed as parts to be moved about without much consideration given to what they think.

If the survey proves anything, it’s that players have perspectives and opinions. The question is whether management is listening.

TEX · 10-28-2008, 08:56 AM

For those who chose Edwards 4th - I wonder what thier Wonderlick Test scores scores were?

TEX · 10-28-2008, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claythan

You know, there are a lot of black players in the league.

I wonder if this is just reverse racism.

Yep. Just like in society. It's always about race and when people point out the obvious - THEY get accused of being racist.

crazycoffey · 10-28-2008, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEX

Yep. Just like in society. It's always about race and when people point out the obvious - THEY get accused of being racist.

Are you reading the article or just spouting off rants?

Black players listed him 4th
BUT
White players listed him 6th; above Mike Holmgren.

that's not alot of disparagement.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 10-28-2008, 09:05 AM

To those of you in the cheap seats throwing around the race card:

Edwards was sixth among white players.

Sixth.

Out of 32.

It has nothing to do with race, and everything with players wanting to play for a guy who's considered a "players coach."

Like chiefnj2 said, maybe players don't think coaches play as important a role as the fans do.

Ebolapox · 10-28-2008, 09:06 AM

look at the coaches that win super bowls. six of the last eight super bowls have been won by guys not considered player's coaches (belichek, cowher, coughlin, gruden).

honestly, the ideal coach isn't a drill instructor, nor is he a soft touch. the ideal coach (as it's been mentioned) knows which buttons to push on which player--although I'd like said coach to be a bit more towards disciplinarian than player's best friend.

look at wade phillips and the cowboys. they performed their best under the tuna, and are folding under wade phillips, a notorious player's coach (who's also been undermined by his owner)

crazycoffey · 10-28-2008, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H5N1

look at the coaches that win super bowls. six of the last eight super bowls have been won by guys not considered player's coaches (belichek, cowher, coughlin, gruden).

honestly, the ideal coach isn't a drill instructor, nor is he a soft touch. the ideal coach (as it's been mentioned) knows which buttons to push on which player--although I'd like said coach to be a bit more towards disciplinarian than player's best friend.

look at wade phillips and the cowboys. they performed their best under the tuna, and are folding under wade phillips, a notorious player's coach (who's also been undermined by his owner)

I think Cowher would be a player's coach.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 10-28-2008, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyCoffey

I think Cowher would be a player's coach.

I know I'd consider him one.

Ebolapox · 10-28-2008, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyCoffey

I think Cowher would be a player's coach.

tell that to kordell stewart.

he seems like a no-nonsense kind of guy from the schottenheimer school of coaching. his teams always had it all put together, which isn't exactly the mark of a player's coach.

crazycoffey · 10-28-2008, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

I know I'd consider him one.

And how about Singletary, he had a hard line this last weekend, but I'd bet he's viewed as a player's coach too.

What's with the perception that players coaches are soft? I don't get it....

I thought a players coach was more of a coach who actually played the game and the players could respect what they said more because of it. Not because they yell or not.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 10-28-2008, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyCoffey

And how about Singletary, he had a hard line this last weekend, but I'd bet he's viewed as a player's coach too.

What's with the perception that players coaches are soft? I don't get it....

I thought a players coach was more of a coach who actually played the game and the players could respect what they said more because of it. Not because they yell or not.

THIS.

Tiger's Fan · 10-28-2008, 09:34 AM

Anyone whos been to a DV camp, and a Herm camp, knows why players would prefer Herm. Players hate camp to begin with, but will always prefer the soft approach. Herm is soft. His teams are soft. His results are soft.

Reerun_KC · 10-28-2008, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buster Hymen

Anyone whos been to a DV camp, and a Herm camp, knows why players would prefer Herm. Players hate camp to begin with, but will always prefer the soft approach. Herm is soft. His teams are soft. His results are soft.

Well the NYJ fans didnt call training camp "Club Herm" for nothing....

Of course players like soft training camps and practices, less they have to exert to earn that paycheck.. Hence, Herm is somewhat loved by players, unless they are HOF players and demand to be traded...

Fish · 10-28-2008, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reerun_KC

Well the NYJ fans didnt call training camp "Club Herm" for nothing....

Of course players like soft training camps and practices, less they have to exert to earn that paycheck.. Hence, Herm is somewhat loved by players, unless they are HOF players and demand to be traded...

Yes, because every player in the NFL is lazy and doesn't want to practice... they're all just collecting a paycheck...

Come on man...

DT58HOF · 10-28-2008, 09:46 AM

just goes to show you these players have no clue and dont care about winning, it happens all the time.
When a team is gonna get rid of a coach the players start lobbying for a black head coach all the time, it happend in the NBA with the Cavs and Wizards.

Good African American Head coaches in the NFL right now
Tony Dungy,Tomlin and soon to be Mike Singletary
Art Shell was decent the first time around.

others that stunk and should of never gotten the job in the first place, Lovie,Herm,Denny Green, these guys were always bums!!

DT58HOF · 10-28-2008, 09:47 AM

Next thing ya know Ty Willingham will replace Homgren in Seattle,lol

10-28-2008, 01:03 AM
Quesadilla Joe Abolish The Salary Cap! Join Date: Mar 2008 Casino cash: $3408675	Players think Herm is 4th Best Coach in the league http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/26/sp...rhoden.html?em http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package..._DOCUMENTS.pdf Sports of The Times N.F.L. Players Evaluate Their Coaches By WILLIAM C. RHODEN Published: October 25, 2008 What do N.F.L. players really think about the coaches for whom they play and the franchises for which they work? Michael Conroy/Associated Press In a survey conducted last season, N.F.L. players picked the Colts’ Tony Dungy as the coach they would most like to play for. Outside of sound bites and manicured postgame comments, the collective thoughts of players about coaches and teams have remained a mystery. Until now. Last season, the N.F.L. players union commissioned the Wharton Sports Business Initiative at the University of Pennsylvania to conduct an unprecedented survey of players. It was the first time players had been asked about issues related to their coaches. The survey asked players to name names, and the players overwhelmingly obliged. Asked which active N.F.L. coaches they would most like to play for, the players picked Tony Dungy (Indianapolis Colts) followed by Lovie Smith (Chicago Bears) and Bill Belichick (New England Patriots). Herman Edwards (Kansas City Chiefs) was fourth and Mike Tomlin (Pittsburgh Steelers) fifth. Asked to name the coaches they would least like to play for, the players named Tom Coughlin (Giants), Eric Mangini (Jets), Jon Gruden (Tampa Bay Buccaneers), Bobby Petrino (formerly of the Atlanta Falcons) and Belichick. The naming of Belichick on both lists illustrated how players were willing to make compromises when it comes to winning. The study is especially relevant at a time of midseason coaching changes, wide swings of performance levels from week to week and periodic episodes of player-coach confrontations. “I think this survey is historic,” said Tukufu Zuberi, the chairman of the sociology department at Penn, who conducted the study with Camille Z. Charles, an associate sociology and education professor. “Nothing like it has ever been done before.” Zuberi added: “You always hear sportscasters and analysts ranking teams and ranking the best coaches and what is important about being a good coach. It’s rare that the athletes themselves express their opinion. What this survey does is give the players a voice.” A total of 1,440 players, or roughly 80 percent of those active in 2007, completed the study by the Wharton Sports Business Initiative, a research and executive think tank that is not a degree-granting program. The players were asked questions in six major categories, including the most influential coach in their lives and the five most important attributes for a head coach. The players were also asked to identify the worst organizations in the N.F.L. (Oakland — no surprise there; Miami; Arizona; Cleveland; and Cincinnati) and the best (New England, Indianapolis, Dallas, Green Bay and Pittsburgh). There was overwhelming common ground among the players despite their racial differences; 65 percent are African-American, 29 percent white, 3 percent Asian, 2 percent other and 1 percent Hispanic. The good news for the N.F.L. is that 90 percent of the players said they respected their head coach, three-quarters said they trusted their head coach and 79 percent said their coach was top quality. More than 50 percent of the players said their pro coach — not their college or high school coach — was the most influential coach in their lives. According to the survey, the most desirable attributes in a head coach were good communication skills, followed by motivational skills, approachability, management skills and leading by example. There were also significant differences between white and black players. For instance, respect and trust were listed by all players as crucial components for successful relationships, but white players expressed more trust and respect for their head coaches than black players. “Who would have thought that the most important things to players is that the coach respects them?” Zuberi said. “This has a fundamental impact on the players’ attitudes toward the coaches. I didn’t expect that white players would trust and respect their coaches more than black players.” Another distinction was that African-American players were not entirely race neutral when it came to head coaches. Race matters. Although all players agreed on the top 10 most desirable head coaches, there were subtle differences between white and black players. Among all players, Dungy was selected as the top coach. White players ranked Belichick second, Smith third, the Denver Broncos’ Mike Shanahan fourth and the Tennessee Titans’ Jeff Fisher fifth. Black players ranked Smith second, Belichick third, Edwards fourth and Tomlin fifth. Edwards was sixth among white players, and Shanahan dropped to ninth among black players. Mike Holmgren of Seattle was ranked seventh among white players and 13th among black players. “It’s not just a question of winning, it is a question of how the players feel about these coaches,” Zuberi said. In contrast to the mainstream workplace, black players are an overwhelming majority in the N.F.L. This can be interpreted as a true meritocracy where the best talent prevails. On the other hand, power is unequally distributed as one moves up the ladder. Six of the 32 head coaches are African-American, and the presence of African-Americans becomes more rare the higher one goes in management. The black football-playing majority must answer to a predominantly white power structure, which includes team executives and owners. Given the disparity in trust and respect between blacks and whites, the study suggested a new model is needed for franchises that hope to get the most out of their players. This means going beyond simply relying on a cluster of veteran players to maintain order in the locker room. They must hire and promote respected African-Americans and place them into positions of power and authority. Communication also requires a franchise to ask itself tough questions: Who can get the most out of players? Who can best understand players? Who has the greatest insight? Who can best speak to the culture? It was no coincidence that black players listed four African-American coaches among their top five. “These are just the players’ opinions,” Zuberi said of the study, “but we haven’t been listening to those opinions. “A coach’s ability to coach should be balanced against his ability to gain the trust and respect of the players. Players are expected to respect and trust the coach. The coach needs to do the same for the players.” • The study was intended to be the first in a series of annual player surveys that will examine a variety of aspects of N.F.L. franchises — including the front office and ownership. N.F.L. players have long been viewed as parts to be moved about without much consideration given to what they think. If the survey proves anything, it’s that players have perspectives and opinions. The question is whether management is listening.
Posts: 19,907

10-28-2008, 08:56 AM	#31
TEX Out Gunning CP's Fandom Police Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Galveston, TX Casino cash: $-1406873	For those who chose Edwards 4th - I wonder what thier Wonderlick Test scores scores were? __________________ "Do we have time to run WASP?"
Posts: 37,088

10-28-2008, 09:05 AM	#34
OnTheWarpath15 MVP Join Date: Sep 2005 Casino cash: $2061115	To those of you in the cheap seats throwing around the race card: Edwards was sixth among white players. Sixth. Out of 32. It has nothing to do with race, and everything with players wanting to play for a guy who's considered a "players coach." Like chiefnj2 said, maybe players don't think coaches play as important a role as the fans do.
Posts: 60,758

10-28-2008, 09:06 AM	#35
Ebolapox remember, remember Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: como Casino cash: $-1740097	look at the coaches that win super bowls. six of the last eight super bowls have been won by guys not considered player's coaches (belichek, cowher, coughlin, gruden). honestly, the ideal coach isn't a drill instructor, nor is he a soft touch. the ideal coach (as it's been mentioned) knows which buttons to push on which player--although I'd like said coach to be a bit more towards disciplinarian than player's best friend. look at wade phillips and the cowboys. they performed their best under the tuna, and are folding under wade phillips, a notorious player's coach (who's also been undermined by his owner)
Posts: 26,523

10-28-2008, 09:34 AM	#41
Tiger's Fan Veteran Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Ks Casino cash: $10004900	Anyone whos been to a DV camp, and a Herm camp, knows why players would prefer Herm. Players hate camp to begin with, but will always prefer the soft approach. Herm is soft. His teams are soft. His results are soft. __________________ Rock Chalk! The San Diego SuperChokers! DaneMcCloud: where cowardice meets dishonesty
Posts: 1,832

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