Mike Vrabel

[Amnorix]

As I did when Pioli came over, I'll post a separate thread because I think it's fair to say that I might have just a little more knowledge about the guy than most on here.

What you guys have traded for is a very smart, team-driven, reliable and consistent performer able to play both inside and outside linebacker in the 3-4, with championship credentials and very good leadership skills.

In my opinion, the reasons that the Chiefs have made this trade are as follows:

1. Veteran leadership. The Chiefs are VERY young. Rather than yet another young draft pick player, the Chiefs have decided that even though he is on the downside of his career and will only play for another year or two, it is important to bring in someone who can show the younger players HOW to practice, HOW to review film, HOW to prepare for games and be coachable, and HOW to play 3-4 linebacker.

2. Defensive flexibility. Vrabel can play both inside and outside in the 3-4 with relatively equal facility. A solid performer, he can set the edge, rush the passer and play hardnosed in the middle.

3. Position flexibility. In addition to his inside/outside talents in the 3-4, he also plays TE in goal line situations, showing the rest of the team that he is able and willing to do WHATEVER the coaches ask to help the team win.

He is, of course, on the downside of his career. Last year there was a very noticeable dropoff in his ability to make impact plays. Whereas in years gone by he stood out on the field for making key plays, last year he wasn't very noticeable. That's good in that you didn't often look at him as having screwed something up, but it's bad in that he wasn't making the strip-sacks that had earned him the love of Patriots fans.

Many here denigrate what he will bring ON the field, and wonder why the Chiefs are giving up anything for him. What you need to understand is that as much as they want what he brings on the field, what they are really bringing him here for is what he brings OFF the field. That is what makes him valuable to a ridiculously young, inexperienced Chiefs team.

And when he talks, those young guys will listen. His three rings ensure that. He will also help the coaches enforce their ways inside the locker room, and get the Chiefs players moving and operating in the right direction.

Though Pats fans knew his time was drawing near, we basically feel like there's been a death in teh family. Vrabel was universally loved and respected by Patriots fans, and we're very sad to see him go.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

I've read Patriot Reign twice.

What the Patriots did in 2001 can't be used as a comparison. They already HAD TALENT. They weren't starting from scratch.

I'm not suggesting we ignore these other variables, but without some talent, it means nothing.

I agree. We had more talent than you. We also had more team leadership than you.

Hell, you guys have NONE on the defensive side of the ball. ZERO. Zip, nada. You think you don't need leadership on the defensive side of teh ball? You're insane.

And you wonder why your defense flat sucks? It's more than talent. It's youth and lack of leadership and alot more besides.

You want to focus on TALENT exclusive of all else. That's absurd. It's TEAM, not just talent.

[Mecca]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

I agree. We had more talent than you. We also had more team leadership than you.

Hell, you guys have NONE on the defensive side of the ball. ZERO. Zip, nada. You think you don't need leadership on the defensive side of teh ball? You're insane.

And you wonder why your defense flat sucks? It's more than talent. It's youth and lack of leadership and alot more besides.

We haven't had a defensive leader in a decade man.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

The chances of you finding that talent in the later rounds are REMOTE.

And you underrate what toughness and intelligence can get you. The Dolphins are NOT that talented. They just aren't. But they improved 10 games in part because of intangibles. One of those intangibles was a weak-ass schedule, but the Patriots and Jets had almost the same weak schedule and couldn't win more games than the 'phins. Part of that was ancillary stuff like injuries, etc., but don't ignore intangibles in the NFL.

This isn't the NBA where the team with the best 2-3 players wins every playoff series.

The Dolphins "improved" because they only beat 2 teams with a winning record in 2008. They "improved" because they added several of "Parcells Guys" through trades and free agency. They "improved" so that the owner could sell the team for more money.

My guess is that they're no better than .500 in 2009.

[Ultra Peanut]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

You overrate 5th and 6th round picks as well.

And Vrabes can help you with more than just one player. He can help your entire squad start walking down the path of winning.

You guys are incredible. The value you put on late round picks is truly mind-boggling. You're already fielding the kiddie-squad. You think another 22 year old drafted in the late rounds is "THE Answer"? Yeesh.

There is no one answer for this team. It's utterly bereft of talent outside of a few players who aren't even a good fit for the new system that's in place. If we drop a 4th rounder for a guy who can provide two or three years of diminished production, at most, it's ****ing ridiculous.

There's a place for leadership, but I would rather upgrade the talent significantly first rather than trying to sprinkle some pixie dust on the turds who currently make up the team. You can do both, but my hope is just that we added the pixie dust for a reasonable price.

Originally Posted by Amnorix

The Dolphins are NOT that talented. They just aren't. But they improved 10 games in part because of intangibles.

And they're going to fall right back off next year. Who cares about the Dolphins?

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Mecca

We haven't had a defensive leader in a decade man.

And you haven't had a half-decent defense in a decade either.

Coincidence? I think not.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

The Dolphins "improved" because they only beat 2 teams with a winning record in 2008. They "improved" because they added several of "Parcells Guys" through trades and free agency. They "improved" so that the owner could sell the team for more money.

My guess is that they're no better than .500 in 2009.

I agree. But they still showed 10 games of improvement, and it wasn't just luck and a weak schedule.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

The chances of you finding that talent in the later rounds are REMOTE.

And you underrate what toughness and intelligence can get you. The Dolphins are NOT that talented. They just aren't. But they improved 10 games in part because of intangibles. One of those intangibles was a weak-ass schedule, but the Patriots and Jets had almost the same weak schedule and couldn't win more games than the 'phins. Part of that was ancillary stuff like injuries, etc., but don't ignore intangibles in the NFL.

This isn't the NBA where the team with the best 2-3 players wins every playoff series.

No, I don't underrate toughness or intelligence.

I just don't think that 1 year of Jesus Vrabel is the answer to our problems, especially when there's a damn good chance that the majority of the players he's mentoring will be sent packing. Vrabel can "lead" the charge right out the door.

He's a 1 year rental. I don't see his "influence" carrying over for 3-5 years when this team is competing for a championship.

[BigRock]

We give up 7th for Vrabel = anyone seriously complaining is a ree-tee-ard

We give up 6th for Vrabel = perfectly acceptable

We give up 5th for Vrabel = ehhhhhh

We give up 4th for Vrabel = WTF? No.

We give up 3rd for Vrabel =

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

I agree. But they still showed 10 games of improvement, and it wasn't just luck and a weak schedule.

A major part of it WAS luck and a weak schedule.

First, they started out with the Wildcat.

Then as the veterans began to play together, the team improved.

The problem is that in 2010, they'll be back to square one.

An old, old team and very little youth on the roster.

[Mecca]

I'm not saying yay or nay till we see what was given up...either way I expect alot of lower tiered cheap moves as opposed to 50 million for 1 guy.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Ultra Peanut

There's a place for leadership, but I would rather upgrade the talent significantly first rather than trying to sprinkle some pixie dust on the turds who currently make up the team. You can do both, but my hope is just that we added the pixie dust for a reasonable price.

First, if the team currently is a bunch of turds, then Pioli will likely cut alot of guys and be assembling from scratch. If not, then he'll keep a fair few players.

Either way, the team you see in 2009 will have the nucleus of the team going forward into 2010 and 2011. The team that wins tomorrow is being formed NOW. You need to show them how to get from the piece of crap the Chiefs currently call their team to a team that is "big, tough, strong, and competes for championships year after year", whcih is the BB/SP motto.

And you are going to spend one or more relatively high picks on the defnsive side of the ball. Thsoe guys are your future too. And they need leadership too.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

A major part of it WAS luck and a weak schedule.

First, they started out with the Wildcat.

Then as the veterans began to play together, the team improved.

The problem is that in 2010, they'll be back to square one.

An old, old team and very little youth on the roster.

I agree luck and a weak schedule did play a significant factor. They won't win 10 again.

But +10 wins isn't just luck and weak schedule. They won 1 freaking game last year. ONE.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

The chances of you finding that talent in the later rounds are REMOTE.

And you underrate what toughness and intelligence can get you. The Dolphins are NOT that talented. They just aren't. But they improved 10 games in part because of intangibles. One of those intangibles was a weak-ass schedule, but the Patriots and Jets had almost the same weak schedule and couldn't win more games than the 'phins. Part of that was ancillary stuff like injuries, etc., but don't ignore intangibles in the NFL.

This isn't the NBA where the team with the best 2-3 players wins every playoff series.

The Dolphins beat two teams with winning records. Two. They paid for a lot of FAs and signed a game manager to get up to that Carl Peterson era of mediocrity.

When they go 6-10 next year, people aren't going to be as impressed with that core.

[Ultra Peanut]

Originally Posted by Mecca

I'm not saying yay or nay till we see what was given up...either way I expect alot of lower tiered cheap moves as opposed to 50 million for 1 guy.

I hope we can be, like, the Oakland A's of the NFL.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

No, I don't underrate toughness or intelligence.

I just don't think that 1 year of Jesus Vrabel is the answer to our problems, especially when there's a damn good chance that the majority of the players he's mentoring will be sent packing. Vrabel can "lead" the charge right out the door.

He's a 1 year rental. I don't see his "influence" carrying over for 3-5 years when this team is competing for a championship.

I don't see much chance of the pick you gave up being on the team in 3-5 years.

Who knows. Maybe you gave up a 4th or something, which completely changes the complexion of this discussion. But mainly, I think it's a low pick and more likely than not you gave up very little to get someone who can help start rowing your team's boat in the right directon.

And you have no idea, and will never know, what influence Vrabel might have on the younger players that helps carry over 3-5 years down the road.