To the Herm haters.

[kcbubb]

I'm tired of all the blame going to Herm. Yes, Herm had his share of blunders but the amount of hate that he gets is ridiculous. The biggest mistake that Herm made was underestimating the impact of Jared Allen. And I did too at the time. In 2007, the Chiefs almost had a top 10 defense despite their terrible offense. We know what happened in 2008. But we are quick to forget the defense of 2007. I'm not saying the Herm was a great coach, but he is not as bad as some here believe.

Just to irritate you, lets take a look at what might have been if Herm had stuck around.

-First the acquisition of Cassell never happens. Herm sticks with Thigpen and Gailey runs the system that worked well in the latter half of the season.

-The switch to the 3-4 never happens and the Chiefs continue to run a 4-3 defense.

-Most likely, no notable free agents are picked up.

-Tony Gonzalez remains with the Chiefs.

-The draft rolls around and Herm takes the safe route as usual and picks the following players:

1. Aaron Curry
2. Everette Brown (Herm likes this pick bc of the desperate need for a pass rusher to replace Jared Allen who was lost in 07 and the success of another small DE Dwight Freeney with the Colts where his role model Tony Dungy coached.)
3. Antione Caldwell (Mal Moore leadership award winner is drafted here) Herm kinda player. And can play all line positions but primarily C or G.
4. Louis Murphy (Herm picks a wide out for the needed depth and Murphy provide some speed.)
5. Jasper Brinkley (Tough middle linebacker probably starts.)
6. Andrew Gardner (RT tackle pushes or replaces McIntosh)
7. Captain Munnerlyn (CB and returner)
7. Ricky Jean-Francois (depth at DT)
7. Ryan Succop K


And to top it off. After speaking with Tony Dungy about Michael Vick, who has been mentoring Vick, Herm trusts Dungy and decides to give Vick a shot at backing up Tyler Thigpen.


Would all of this happened... probably not, but it is interesting to think about what might have been if Herm and Carl would have stayed. Again, I don't think Herm is great and I definitely don't think Carl was good, but I do wonder what might have happened. I do like the draft above much better than our current one, and I do like that we still would have Tony G.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

This is the argument I'm trying to make. Carl Peterson made some really, really, really lousy decisions at the end of the Vermeil era and the beginning of the Herm Edwards era. You can argue that Herm Edwards was a large part of that too, but there are enough reports to suggest that it was largely Carl Peterson who outright refused the rebuild and youth movement in spite of Herm's insistence to do so. Peterson's refusal to rebuild as soon as Vermeil retired set this organization back at least 5 years. So no matter who came in as the head coach in 2006, this team was set to implode in 2007 anyway. There is no way that a team with that many 30+ year old veterans, and less than a handful of good players under 30, wouldn't implode. It was like putting band-aids on the Titanic to fix a sinking ship. Look, I am not an Obama fan. But blaming Herm for trainwrecks that happened well before he was coach is like blaming Obama for the horrible economy he inherited. That's a fair analogy. Yes, there are LOTS of things to blame him for... but too often he gets the blame for the enormous messes Peterson made.

That brings us today. You say it will take 2-3 years to fix this thing. And I agree with that. But without the moves we made in 2008, it would have taken at least 4-5 years. We purged the roster of a lot of old veterans weighing down our salary cap. We gave some young guys who have some decent upside a lot of real game reps. As a result of 2008, we have a young roster with some bright young players and probably one of the best cap situations in the league. We are absolutely in 100 times better shape than we were in 2007 because of things we did in 2008.

I'm not blaming Herman ****ing Edwards for the mess that Carl made.

I am, however blaming Herman ****ing Edwards for the mess he left.

Some, most, of the players he picked in the draft when he picked them were either no brainers or head scratchers, with little in between.

He didn't do this great job that you are trying to characterize, and in most cases the piss poor coaching, and the players being put in positions to fail undermined any efforts made in the draft.

And while he may have picked some players that might have been a good foundation in a diiferent scheme than the one we will utilize under Pioli and Haley, his failure as a coach ultimately will lead to his failure to bring in talent that will be the foundation moving forward.

While one could argue that guys like Dorsey, Hali, McBride and Tyler, along with Pollard and Page, can possibly contribute in this scheme, and even succeed, the chances are far better that most, if not all are a poor fit and will fail to make the transition.

In the end, the only two players that you can point to and say with near certainty, that they are going to stick and be a part of this team in the coming years are Branden Albert and Brandon Flowers.

[The Bad Guy]

Originally Posted by milkman

In the end, the only two players that you can point to and say with near certainty, that they are going to stick and be a part of this team in the coming years are Branden Albert and Brandon Flowers.

I'd add Dwayne Bowe to the mix as well.

But be careful, Chiefzilla thinks we have a great foundation. He really considers Mike Cox to be a really good player.

Butterflies and doves must fly out of his ass too.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by The Bad Guy

I'd add Dwayne Bowe to the mix as well.

But be careful, Chiefzilla thinks we have a great foundation. He really considers Mike Cox to be a really good player.

Butterflies and doves must fly out of his ass too.

Yep.

My bad.

Forgot about Bowe.

[WilliamTheIrish]

=Reerun_KC;5933624]This!

If you want to immune Herm ....

Immune Herm?

[milkman]

Originally Posted by WilliamTheIrish

Immune Herm?

It's Reerun.

Just go with it.

[WilliamTheIrish]

Originally Posted by TheFullReeRun

The impeeding shit storm that is about to be unleashed is going to be priceless to watch...

[WilliamTheIrish]

Originally Posted by Mecca

Herm is a really horrendous coach that talks a big game.

I think zilla is trying to make the point that Herm Edwards was in a no win situation. He was left with no young core pieces and a GM who did not want to rebuild. That's Herms fault for taking the job seeing as he knew what he was getting himself into.

But at the same time I see the point he took over an aging declining team and wanted to build through the draft when you change styles to that degree there will be some very bad years.

Bull. Shit.

Herm knew exactly what he was getting Peterson. Peterson was getting his foot shuffling porter and Herm was getting a job and bazillion $ to be .. a foot shuffling porter.



Herm won, Carl won, fans lost. And lost. And lost. And lost.

[WilliamTheIrish]

Originally Posted by Mecca

And my response would be, who the **** has played at Alabama? Exactly.

Ken Stabler?

[WilliamTheIrish]

Originally Posted by Mecca

I knew that was coming but the simple answer to that is. The passing game today and when he played are massively different.

True.

Todays passing game is much, much easier for any QB. Can't hit the QB after a toss. Can't touch a receiver after 5 yards. Guys like Namath and Stabler would shred these defenses weekly.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by milkman

I'm not blaming Herman ****ing Edwards for the mess that Carl made.

I am, however blaming Herman ****ing Edwards for the mess he left.

Some, most, of the players he picked in the draft when he picked them were either no brainers or head scratchers, with little in between.


He didn't do this great job that you are trying to characterize, and in most cases the piss poor coaching, and the players being put in positions to fail undermined any efforts made in the draft.

And while he may have picked some players that might have been a good foundation in a diiferent scheme than the one we will utilize under Pioli and Haley, his failure as a coach ultimately will lead to his failure to bring in talent that will be the foundation moving forward.

Any Chiefs' fans should know that just because a first round pick is slotted in the right place, it doesn't make him a no-brainer. But let me address this question based on how these young players got their start. Recall that Albert's start at LT was largely due to a ballsy move by Herm to declare Albert the starter and move McIntosh to RT, even if many wondered if Albert should start at Guard. He cut Brackenridge to give opportunity to Leggett, benched Wesley and Knight for Pollard and Page, cut Law to start Flowers, benched Surtain to start Carr, cut two veteran fullbacks to start an undrafted rookie. These seem like small potatoes, but this kind of commitment to youth is unheard of KC, especially after we saw what happened in the Vermeil era.

Furthermore, he brought together a good group of kids. They're great character guys and for a team that young, it was remarkable that they kept such a tight locker room. I am a big believer in the idea that to develop young players, you have to get them motivated and you have to give them chances on the field--there is no substitution for a real game. If Carl Peterson had his way, the team would have brought five veterans in to try to patch up a few holes and make the team settle for 8-8. And with the cap space we had, he could have easily done it in 2 years. I think we are undermining the fact that it was ballsy to push a complete rebuild to a GM who had a history of reloading instead of rebuilding.

Had there not have been a coach to push for a complete rebuild, this team's salary cap would be strapped with a lot of average free agents that weighed down Pioli's ability to start building from the ground up. Even if some of you think this team is at Ground Zero, that's still a better situation than Peterson's usual approach of mediocre patchwork.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by WilliamTheIrish

Bull. Shit.

Herm knew exactly what he was getting Peterson. Peterson was getting his foot shuffling porter and Herm was getting a job and bazillion $ to be .. a foot shuffling porter.

I think Herm knew he was inheriting a sinking ship. But it sounds like he wasn't prepared for Peterson's stubborn refusal to do anything to fix it. Because that's the part that pisses me off most--this team should have been hit with a wrecking ball as soon as Vermeil left. Instead, we tried to milk a few more years out and put the franchise back at least 5 years in the process.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Any Chiefs' fans should know that just because a first round pick is slotted in the right place, it doesn't make him a no-brainer. But let me address this question based on how these young players got their start. Recall that Albert's start at LT was largely due to a ballsy move by Herm to declare Albert the starter and move McIntosh to RT, even if many wondered if Albert should start at Guard. He cut Brackenridge to give opportunity to Leggett, benched Wesley and Knight for Pollard and Page, cut Law to start Flowers, benched Surtain to start Carr, cut two veteran fullbacks to start an undrafted rookie. These seem like small potatoes, but this kind of commitment to youth is unheard of KC, especially after we saw what happened in the Vermeil era.

Furthermore, he brought together a good group of kids. They're great character guys and for a team that young, it was remarkable that they kept such a tight locker room. I am a big believer in the idea that to develop young players, you have to get them motivated and you have to give them chances on the field--there is no substitution for a real game. If Carl Peterson had his way, the team would have brought five veterans in to try to patch up a few holes and make the team settle for 8-8. And with the cap space we had, he could have easily done it in 2 years. I think we are undermining the fact that it was ballsy to push a complete rebuild to a GM who had a history of reloading instead of rebuilding.

Had there not have been a coach to push for a complete rebuild, this team's salary cap would be strapped with a lot of average free agents that weighed down Pioli's ability to start building from the ground up. Even if some of you think this team is at Ground Zero, that's still a better situation than Peterson's usual approach of mediocre patchwork.

Once again, I am not debating any of this with you.

Yes, Herman ****ing Edwards went with youth, and the players benefitted from that experience, but the fact remains, that game experience will only so much to develop the skillls of thes player and help them reach thier potential.

In most cases, those young players were not put in position to succeed, and they weren't learning the necessary fundamentals to succeed.

Had we continued to allow Herman ****ing Edwards and his staff to "coach" these players, they would never have realized their potential, and the foundation that you claim he put into to place would have been nothing more than an illusion.

And because he failed these players, that foundation will still most likely prove to be an illusion.

[chiefs1111]

This thread just won't die will it

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by milkman

Once again, I am not debating any of this with you.

Yes, Herman ****ing Edwards went with youth, and the players benefitted from that experience, but the fact remains, that game experience will only so much to develop the skillls of thes player and help them reach thier potential.

In most cases, those young players were not put in position to succeed, and they weren't learning the necessary fundamentals to succeed.

Had we continued to allow Herman ****ing Edwards and his staff to "coach" these players, they would never have realized their potential, and the foundation that you claim he put into to place would have been nothing more than an illusion.

And because he failed these players, that foundation will still most likely prove to be an illusion.

Well, to answer your first point, getting the right players in is a big part of the battle. Making good decisions about which players should play is another, and I think that was handled effectively. And most of all, motivating these players to care is a huge part of the battle. How many young careers have been trainwrecked because they just don't give a shit about football or because they care too much about themselves?

I never disagreed with your second point. Herm was never a guy to take this team to the next level. They needed a solid tactical coach like Haley to coach them up. And I'm sure (and hoping) his coaching staff is re-teaching these guys better habits and I am definitely sure that better gameday decisions will put them in better positions to win. But I think Herm did a lot more to get the right pieces in place than he gets credit for.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Well, to answer your first point, getting the right players in is a big part of the battle. Making good decisions about which players should play is another, and I think that was handled effectively. And most of all, motivating these players to care is a huge part of the battle. How many young careers have been trainwrecked because they just don't give a shit about football or because they care too much about themselves?

I never disagreed with your second point. Herm was never a guy to take this team to the next level. They needed a solid tactical coach like Haley to coach them up. And I'm sure (and hoping) his coaching staff is re-teaching these guys better habits and I am definitely sure that better gameday decisions will put them in better positions to win. But I think Herm did a lot more to get the right pieces in place than he gets credit for.

Are you telling me that you think that Dorsey, Hali, Tyler, McBride, Page and Pollard are all going to transition to the the 34 defense?

Is that what you're telling me?

Most of these guys, because of Herman ****ing Edwards failure as the coach of the Kansas City Chiefs will now be put in a better position to succeed when they are either traded or released.

No matter how you try to spin it, Herman ****ing Edwards stint is a failure of more than epic proportions.