A case for Tyler Thigpen

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

True franchise QB's: Brady, Manning's, Roethlisberger.

Guys that were drafted to be a FQB who will eventually or could win a SB: Rivers, Cutler, Ryan, Rodgers, Flacco, Stafford, Sanchez.

Guys that are solid QB's, but I don't think are capable of leading a team to a championship: Brees, Romo, McNabb.

Guys that could be solid but I don't think are capable: Cassel, Quinn, Schaub.

The rest are either to old to be considered, are no good, or are excaping my memory at the moment.

So your assertion is that people were claiming that Cassel was going to develop into Brady or Manning, or at least Roethlisberger?

If that's the case, can you find me 10 posts or so by different people to verify that? I sure don't recall any such thing occurring on any large scale.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

So your assertion is that people were claiming that Cassel was going to develop into Brady or Manning, or at least Roethlisberger?

If that's the case, can you find me 10 posts or so by different people to verify that? I sure don't recall any such thing occurring on any large scale.

I'm on my phone, so that isn't possible at the moment.

However, I will tell you that there was a thread with a poll discussing it after the trade. Matter of fact, I think I started it and the question was "is Cassel capable of putting a team on his back and winning a championship" referencing the idea of a franchise QB.

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

I'm on my phone, so that isn't possible at the moment.

However, I will tell you that there was a thread with a poll discussing it after the trade. Matter of fact, I think I started it and the question was "is Cassel capable of putting a team on his back and winning a championship" referencing the idea of a franchise QB.

But you keep conflating your arguments. There are only 2 franchise QBs in the NFL: Brady and Manning. Some people would argue that Roethlisberger belongs on the list, but that still only makes 3 total.

As far as putting teams on the back, I wouldn't put Manning among that group, and he's the second best QB in the NFL.

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson have won Super Bowls. Surely you're not claiming that Cassel can't become another Dilfer/Johnson, right?

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

But you keep conflating your arguments. There are only 2 franchise QBs in the NFL: Brady and Manning. Some people would argue that Roethlisberger belongs on the list, but that still only makes 3 total.

As far as putting teams on the back, I wouldn't put Manning among that group, and he's the second best QB in the NFL.

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson have won Super Bowls. Surely you're not claiming that Cassel can't become another Dilfer/Johnson, right?

I'll type out a full response when I get home in an hour or so.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

But you keep conflating your arguments. There are only 2 franchise QBs in the NFL: Brady and Manning. Some people would argue that Roethlisberger belongs on the list, but that still only makes 3 total.

As far as putting teams on the back, I wouldn't put Manning among that group, and he's the second best QB in the NFL.

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson have won Super Bowls. Surely you're not claiming that Cassel can't become another Dilfer/Johnson, right?

Working backwards:

The odds aren't in his favor.

Second, I underestimated your ability to take past posts of mine and apply them to this conversation.

I would have worded my earlier statement better by saying that both Manning's, and Roethlisberger have PROVEN they deserve the franchise QB status. (I'm leaving Brady out of the conversation based on the fact that he was a needle in a haystack - let's talk about guys that were drafted or signed with the intention of being a franchise QB)

So, that leaves the following - guys that I consider franchise QB's based on their draft status, physical tools and intangibles - guys that were drafted with the expectation of being "the guy" for 10+ years and leading their team to a championship or more.

Rivers, Cutler, Ryan, Rodgers, Flacco, Stafford, Sanchez.

They just haven't proven it yet, but have many years to do so. They are all still young.

NcNabb was drafted to be a franchise QB, but as we've seen, can't win the big game. That drops him out of the conversation in my book.

Other than that, Quinn was the only other guy drafted with the intention of getting a franchise QB, and the jury is still out - though I think he'll be solid, but not capable of putting a tema on his back and winning a SB.

I'm not sure how anyone can look at the Cassel situation and say he was just brought in to be "a guy". This was the guy they wanted, and they passed up others to do so - not to mention paid him what they would have paid a franchise QB in the draft.

The rest of the guys I listed can stay as already described - none of them were drafted or signed thinking they would be a franchise QB, IMO.

[sedated]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

McNabb was drafted to be a franchise QB, but as we've seen, can't win the big game. That drops him out of the conversation in my book.

wtf? he's pretty much done nothing but win, been to 5 NFC championship games, 5 pro bowls, holds numerous franchise passing records, and has been the face of his franchise for a decade. not a franchise QB? wtf?



your criteria for franchise QB is a little weird. essentially, they have to be a high draft pick and win a super bowl.



Roethlisberger's stats are average at best, but since he was drafted in the first round and his defense handed him 2 super bowls, he must be a HOFer.

[Bane]

Originally Posted by sedated

wtf? he's pretty much done nothing but win, been to 5 NFC championship games, 5 pro bowls, holds numerous franchise passing records, and has been the face of his franchise for a decade. not a franchise QB? wtf?



your criteria for franchise QB is a little weird. essentially, they have to be a high draft pick and win a super bowl.



Roethlisberger's stats are average at best, but since he was drafted in the first round and his defense handed him 2 super bowls, he must be a HOFer.

And he did it with no stand out receivers.Yeah he sucks.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by sedated

wtf? he's pretty much done nothing but win, been to 5 NFC championship games, 5 pro bowls, holds numerous franchise passing records, and has been the face of his franchise for a decade. not a franchise QB? wtf?



your criteria for franchise QB is a little weird. essentially, they have to be a high draft pick and win a super bowl.



Roethlisberger's stats are average at best, but since he was drafted in the first round and his defense handed him 2 super bowls, he must be a HOFer.

Yeah, his defense handed him two rings.

I guess you missed the part where he accounted for all 74 yards on the final drive to win the ****ing game.

THAT'S what franchise QB's do.

And NcNabb has choked in almost every big game he's had. Being clutch in the biggest games is pretty ****ing important, wouldn't you say?

If you want to create a category for "franchise QB's that shit the bed when it matters most", then go right ahead.

[sedated]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Yeah, his defense handed him two rings.

I guess you missed the part where he accounted for all 74 yards on the final drive to win the ****ing game.

THAT'S what franchise QB's do.

And NcNabb has choked in almost every big game he's had. Being clutch in the biggest games is pretty ****ing important, wouldn't you say?

If you want to create a category for "franchise QB's that shit the bed when it matters most", then go right ahead.

I saw that drive, but I also saw all the other games Roth played where he didn't do shit except hand the ball off. He has played his entire career with a great front office, great receivers, great running game, and great defense.


As for McNabb, all playoff games are "big games" and he has won plenty of them. Without a runninng game or receivers.


But I guess all that is pretty easy to forget when you pay too much attention to ESPN.

[RippedmyFlesh]

Originally Posted by sedated

wtf? he's pretty much done nothing but win, been to 5 NFC championship games, 5 pro bowls, holds numerous franchise passing records, and has been the face of his franchise for a decade. not a franchise QB? wtf?



your criteria for franchise QB is a little weird. essentially, they have to be a high draft pick and win a super bowl.



Roethlisberger's stats are average at best, but since he was drafted in the first round and his defense handed him 2 super bowls, he must be a HOFer.

agree

Mcnabb turned out to be by far the best in his class.
Don't understand the hate for mcnabb.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by RippedmyFlesh

agree

Mcnabb turned out to be by far the best in his class.
Don't understand the hate for mcnabb.

Don't hate him, he just didn't live up to the #2 overall selection, IMO. Especially when he had MULTIPLE chances, and failed each time.

People say that Roethlisberger was handed rings by his defense, what the **** happened in Philly then?

And being the best in a class of Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Daunte Culpepper, Cade McNown, Shawn King,Brock Huard, Joe Germaine, Aaron Brooks, Kevin Daft, Michael Bishop, Chris Greisen and Scott Covington isn't exactly high praise...

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Working backwards:

The odds aren't in his favor.

Second, I underestimated your ability to take past posts of mine and apply them to this conversation.

I would have worded my earlier statement better by saying that both Manning's, and Roethlisberger have PROVEN they deserve the franchise QB status. (I'm leaving Brady out of the conversation based on the fact that he was a needle in a haystack - let's talk about guys that were drafted or signed with the intention of being a franchise QB)

I don't agree on Ben, but let's concede it to give him a spot.

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

So, that leaves the following - guys that I consider franchise QB's based on their draft status, physical tools and intangibles - guys that were drafted with the expectation of being "the guy" for 10+ years and leading their team to a championship or more.

Rivers, Cutler, Ryan, Rodgers, Flacco, Stafford, Sanchez.

They just haven't proven it yet, but have many years to do so. They are all still young.

This makes no sense, particularly when you include Flacco. Eli isn't on your list here even though he's won a Super Bowl, but a #18 pick that some thought would go in the second round is?

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

NcNabb was drafted to be a franchise QB, but as we've seen, can't win the big game. That drops him out of the conversation in my book.

McNabb's got a better playoff record than Manning and has brought his team to the Super Bowl, and to the NFCCG multiple times. He's clearly won big games. Your assertion here makes no sense, in my opinion. The only year Manning won the Super Bowl, he was getting crushed by the Patriots until they turned into a M*A*S*H unit, and he was then able to take advantage of that, along with lousy officiating, and got to face the Bears in the Super Bowl. Hell, he was being talked of as being the greatest choker in history before he got that win.

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Other than that, Quinn was the only other guy drafted with the intention of getting a franchise QB, and the jury is still out - though I think he'll be solid, but not capable of putting a tema on his back and winning a SB.

All QBs are drafted with the intention of getting a franchise QB. Quinn fell because so many teams doubted he'd ever become one.

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

I'm not sure how anyone can look at the Cassel situation and say he was just brought in to be "a guy". This was the guy they wanted, and they passed up others to do so - not to mention paid him what they would have paid a franchise QB in the draft.

The rest of the guys I listed can stay as already described - none of them were drafted or signed thinking they would be a franchise QB, IMO.

There's a difference between "a guy" and "a true franchise player", but there are also other layers of quarterbacks, just as you yourself have delineated. Again, nobody that I've seen expects Cassel to become Brady or Manning. Then again, nobody with a brain will expect that of any quarterback, given that they are 2 of the best to ever play the game (for Manning, this is true at least during the regular season, if not in the playoffs).

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

This makes no sense, particularly when you include Flacco. Eli isn't on your list here even though he's won a Super Bowl, but a #18 pick that some thought would go in the second round is?

That's the second time you've apparently missed me saying BOTH MANNING'S.

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

That's the second time you've apparently missed me saying BOTH MANNING'S.

No. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to put both Mannings in the franchise section and to not have Eli with the second tier. Really, I'm trying to be polite about this, but calling Eli a franchise level player is just about as ****ing stupid as it gets.

[sedated]

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

This makes no sense, particularly when you include Flacco. Eli isn't on your list here even though he's won a Super Bowl, but a #18 pick that some thought would go in the second round is?

in his defense, he said "Manning's".

It was intended to be pural, but ended up possessive, so I can see the confusion.