**** You Scott Pioli

[JuicesFlowing]

Originally Posted by beach tribe

I seem to remember Trent Green going through the same thing.

IF Cassel is the guy that Pioli wanted, he had to get him right now, or else he would be in Denver, and we wouldn't be witnessing all the great stuff going on over there. There really wasn't a whole lot that could be done about the line, all though I do believe that they should have tried harder. I believe that next off-season it will be priority 1.

I agree with this. We needed a QB, and that's all there is to it. Would we rather have a "better" O-line with Thigpen or some stop-gap like Neckbeard? Pioli got his QB. It takes time to upgrade an entire team. Pioli chose the QB he wanted first, and I'm fine with that. I keep forgetting that all of these Planeteers are better GM's than Pioli.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by JuicesFlowing

I agree with this. We needed a QB, and that's all there is to it. Would we rather have a "better" O-line with Thigpen or some stop-gap like Neckbeard? Pioli got his QB. It takes time to upgrade an entire team. Pioli chose the QB he wanted first, and I'm fine with that. I keep forgetting that all of these Planeteers are better GM's than Pioli.

Again, how do you ignore the O-Line almost altogether in the draft?

How is it you only take a plodding RT from a spread offense, and you take a project CB in the fourth in favor of a quality center prospect, and pass pretty good RT prospect in favor of a RT project (who you end up converting to guard)?

[Deberg_1990]

Originally Posted by milkman

Again, how do you ignore the O-Line almost altogether in the draft?

How is it you only take a plodding RT from a spread offense, and you take a project CB in the fourth in favor of a quality center prospect, and pass pretty good RT prospect in favor of a RT project (who you end up converting to guard)?

My only guess is that at the time, Pioli and Haley thought that the O-line was more solid than it really is??

[TFG]

Originally Posted by Deberg_1990

My only guess is that at the time, Pioli and Haley thought that the O-line was more solid than it really is??

The first duty of both was to assess the talent on the roster and plan to upgrade it accordingly. If Pioli and Haley thought the C-ORG-ORT was just A-OK after watching last year...

[milkman]

Originally Posted by Deberg_1990

My only guess is that at the time, Pioli and Haley thought that the O-line was more solid than it really is??

How could they possibly think that?

[Deberg_1990]

Originally Posted by milkman

How could they possibly think that?

I agree...

But why did they mostly ignore the O-line in the draft then?

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by milkman

Again, how do you ignore the O-Line almost altogether in the draft?

How is it you only take a plodding RT from a spread offense, and you take a project CB in the fourth in favor of a quality center prospect, and pass pretty good RT prospect in favor of a RT project (who you end up converting to guard)?

You take the CB because you're looking at the trends of the NFL. That's something that even some of the smarter and better posters here (I consider you one of them) might be overlooking. 3 quality cornerbacks is turning into an NFL must.

You take Brown because he's the best you see at that time (or you think he has the most potential), and he's a project just as every other o-lineman taken at that point in the draft is likely to be. You hope to find lightning in a bottle, but you realize that it's not likely to happen.

It's interesting to me that people are complaining about a draft where the first round pick looks great, the 2nd round pick brought in the team's QB, the 3rd round pick looks as if he might well pan out and become a starter sooner rather than later (possibly taking last year's "cant' miss" prospect and putting him on the bench in the process), the 4th round pick looks as if he's got all the potential in the world and the last pick looks as if he could become a pro-bowl type of player in the future. I don't know if that's because people overlook the crap shoot aspect of the draft, because the draft geeking gives them unreasonable expectations or because they've been so scarred by the previous regime.

[TFG]

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

You take the CB because you're looking at the trends of the NFL. That's something that even some of the smarter and better posters here (I consider you one of them) might be overlooking. 3 quality cornerbacks is turning into an NFL must.

You take Brown because he's the best you see at that time (or you think he has the most potential), and he's a project just as every other o-lineman taken at that point in the draft is likely to be. You hope to find lightning in a bottle, but you realize that it's not likely to happen.

It's interesting to me that people are complaining about a draft where the first round pick looks great, the 2nd round pick brought in the team's QB, the 3rd round pick looks as if he might well pan out and become a starter sooner rather than later (possibly taking last year's "cant' miss" prospect and putting him on the bench in the process), the 4th round pick looks as if he's got all the potential in the world and the last pick looks as if he could become a pro-bowl type of player in the future. I don't know if that's because people overlook the crap shoot aspect of the draft, because the draft geeking gives them unreasonable expectations or because they've been so scarred by the previous regime.

Oh get real. Three CBs is not anything "new" in the NFL. Pioli took what he thought was BPA (Best Player Available) after T-Jax and Magee (need picks for his switch to a 3-4). The best corner available at the top of round 4 was Brice McCain of Utah. You can see him start tomorrow night for the Texans. D-Wash wasn't even a starter at Ohio State. All he ever did to impress anyone was jump high.

There is an order to things. If you think parting with a high second rounder will land that "franchise QB" that's fine. But you cannot do that and just completely F### UP the assessment of the OLs on the roster. Cassel required good protection. Pioli and Haley started this offseason with 2 good OLs and garbage everywhere else. That's still the case assuming the Chiefs aren't going to start Darryl Harris anytime soon, and indeed may pull "Lilja II" and cut Harris.


In the end, you must be fair and realistic. Cheer all you want for Pioli, his "Pro Bowl Seventh Round K" did a lot of missing last year for the Chickens, and while T-Jackson is a good solid 3-4 DE who holds the point hard and pushes the pocket, a top 3 pick is really supposed to be more than that, because there are dozens who can do that, but only a small few who can pass block and run block as an NFL OT at a high level. T-Jackson vs. OT isn't close, even if Cassel is hopefully OK.

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by TFG

Oh get real. Three CBs is not anything "new" in the NFL. Pioli took what he thought was BPA (Best Player Available) after T-Jax and Magee (need picks for his switch to a 3-4). The best corner available at the top of round 4 was Brice McCain of Utah. You can see him start tomorrow night for the Texans. D-Wash wasn't even a starter at Ohio State. All he ever did to impress anyone was jump high.

There is an order to things. If you think parting with a high second rounder will land that "franchise QB" that's fine. But you cannot do that and just completely F### UP the assessment of the OLs on the roster. Cassel required good protection. Pioli and Haley started this offseason with 2 good OLs and garbage everywhere else. That's still the case assuming the Chiefs aren't going to start Darryl Harris anytime soon, and indeed may pull "Lilja II" and cut Harris.


In the end, you must be fair and realistic. Cheer all you want for Pioli, his "Pro Bowl Seventh Round K" did a lot of missing last year for the Chickens, and while T-Jackson is a good solid 3-4 DE who holds the point hard and pushes the pocket, a top 3 pick is really supposed to be more than that, because there are dozens who can do that, but only a small few who can pass block and run block as an NFL OT at a high level. T-Jackson vs. OT isn't close, even if Cassel is hopefully OK.

Your opinion is noted.

However, here on planet Earth, teams are looking for 3 starting quality corners more than ever, due to the increase in the number of 3 and 4 receiver sets. It's what teams are doing to counter the Patriots and others who have all but eliminated the fullback position (New England's not even carrying one on the roster) in order to add more receivers into the mix.

As for your preferred CB, you may or may not be right down the road. That was not what I was responding to, however, as I think it's pretty idiotic to bitch about CB-1 v. CB-2 once you've gotten past the first 2 rounds. Once players get to round 3, there's usually a reason they've fallen that far.

As for the bitch about Jackson, I can only note that you're still an idiot, and leave it at that.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

You take the CB because you're looking at the trends of the NFL. That's something that even some of the smarter and better posters here (I consider you one of them) might be overlooking. 3 quality cornerbacks is turning into an NFL must.

You take Brown because he's the best you see at that time (or you think he has the most potential), and he's a project just as every other o-lineman taken at that point in the draft is likely to be. You hope to find lightning in a bottle, but you realize that it's not likely to happen.

It's interesting to me that people are complaining about a draft where the first round pick looks great, the 2nd round pick brought in the team's QB, the 3rd round pick looks as if he might well pan out and become a starter sooner rather than later (possibly taking last year's "cant' miss" prospect and putting him on the bench in the process), the 4th round pick looks as if he's got all the potential in the world and the last pick looks as if he could become a pro-bowl type of player in the future. I don't know if that's because people overlook the crap shoot aspect of the draft, because the draft geeking gives them unreasonable expectations or because they've been so scarred by the previous regime.

I get that.

But we have a trio of solid young corners.

The fact is, Niswanger is still a project, and Luigs is a more advanced project already (as is Eric Wood, who was taken in the fifth round, I believe).

If we're starting a project, I'd rather draft and start the one that has more upside.

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by milkman

I get that.

But we have a trio of solid young corners.

The fact is, Niswanger is still a project, and Luigs is a more advanced project already (as is Eric Wood, who was taken in the fifth round, I believe).

If we're starting a project, I'd rather draft and start the one that has more upside.

I understand your preference. I just think it ignores the G.M. you're looking at, and his draft history. New England builds around the D-line, and the K.C. D-line sucked. It needed a complete overhaul. I'm actually a bit surprised that Dorsey is still in K.C., and I can only guess that it's because of his contract and the inability to get fair value in a trade return.

It would not shock me to see this team shell out big money, either in free agency or with the first round pick, for a nose tackle in the upcoming offseason. It's just how Pioli has done it in the past.

Also, I fully expect Pioli to pounce on any O-lineman he thinks is worth a damn once final cuts are made throughout the league.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

I understand your preference. I just think it ignores the G.M. you're looking at, and his draft history. New England builds around the D-line, and the K.C. D-line sucked. It needed a complete overhaul. I'm actually a bit surprised that Dorsey is still in K.C., and I can only guess that it's because of his contract and the inability to get fair value in a trade return.

It would not shock me to see this team shell out big money, either in free agency or with the first round pick, for a nose tackle in the upcoming offseason. It's just how Pioli has done it in the past.

Also, I fully expect Pioli to pounce on any O-lineman he thinks is worth a damn once final cuts are made throughout the league.

No, it doesn't ignore his history of building around the D-Line, since we are debating the merits of taking a center as opposed to a CB in the fourth, and taking a more natural RT than Colin Brown in the fifth.

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by milkman

No, it doesn't ignore his history of building around the D-Line, since we are debating the merits of taking a center as opposed to a CB in the fourth, and taking a more natural RT than Colin Brown in the fifth.

I meant the general approach, rather than the specifics. I should have been more clear, so my apologies for that.

The reality is that, whether people like it or not, teams will draft according to their board and reasoning, and not according to the whims of people on a message board: and for damned good reason. Washington, for example, is a pick that Mecca was fine with and you're criticizing. Unless a GM hits at 100% all the time, there will always be some messageboard geek who can pull out a "See, I wanted!" thread and feel as is he was superior. It's just the nature of the beast.

The key isn't for a team to be right all the time. It's for a team to be right enough of the time. Thus far, this draft looks very good for the Chiefs, and I think people should be looking at that rather than complaining because their particular preferences weren't followed to the letter.

Just as a F'rinstance, I wanted Clady last season, and Oher and Sean Smith this season. I'd still be thrilled with those picks, but I can't exactly complain with Mayo, Chung, Butler, Vollmer and Brace. It's really just a matter of how much faith/trust you have in your front office.

[TEX]

Originally Posted by JuicesFlowing

I agree with this. We needed a QB, and that's all there is to it. Would we rather have a "better" O-line with Thigpen or some stop-gap like Neckbeard? Pioli got his QB. It takes time to upgrade an entire team. Pioli chose the QB he wanted first, and I'm fine with that. I keep forgetting that all of these Planeteers are better GM's than Pioli.

The deal is the Chiefs had the a TON of cap space and the entire draft to upgrade the OL to protect the franchise QB - and that's all there is to it...