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Old 08-31-2009, 05:15 PM  
Rain Man Rain Man is offline
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Who is the greatest American villain?
A Charles Manson reference in another thread got me thinking about this. Who is the greatest villain in American history, the one that will draw the most ire from any right-thinking American?

Give me some options and I'll put up a poll. Nominees can come from any category: war, politics, crime, business, finance, celebrity, sports, child care, Benetton models, comic strip artists (Bil Keane, anyone?), or others. Give me your best shot.

The rules:

1. We're talking true villainy here. Villainy where you can't really defend anything the person did at a dinner party without getting winces.

2. We're talking national scale. Remember, the kicker that shall go unnamed is a hero in Indianapolis.

3. Real life only. While many may villainize Elmer Fudd for his relentless and brazen murderous stalking of Bugs Bunny, Mr. Fudd does not actually exist, and therefore any villainous acts committed by Mr. Fudd do not exist, either.

4. The villain must be an American citizen, or if their villainy took place before 1783, a resident of the area that would eventually become the United State AND acting against the United States for villainous reasons rather than sincere loyalty to another country in conflict with nascent American liberty movements or peoples and in the absence of a history of loyalty to American causes.

Once I get 20 reasonable candidates, I'll post the poll.
Last edited by Rain Man; 08-31-2009 at 05:36 PM..
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Old 08-31-2009, 11:03 PM   #121
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It also is in violation of Rules #2 and #4. FAIL.
Okay. How can you argue that the Civil War did not occur on a national scale?

Also, Robert E. Lee was born and died an American. Therefore, I don't see how he violates rule number four at all.
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Old 08-31-2009, 11:15 PM   #122
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Okay. How can you argue that the Civil War did not occur on a national scale?

Also, Robert E. Lee was born and died an American. Therefore, I don't see how he violates rule number four at all.
It did occur on a national scale, but the "villian" of the North was pretty clearly the hero of the South. I re-read #4 and you are correct, he actually does pass that one since it specifies being against the "United States".

So your choice only breaks two rules. Although one would have been enough to disqualify.
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Old 08-31-2009, 11:29 PM   #123
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The nominations I'm accepting so far are:

O.J. Simpson
Bernie Madoff
Timothy McVeigh
Ted Bundy
John Wilkes Booth
The BTK Killer
Benedict Arnold
Jeffrey Dahmer
Andrea Yates
Joseph McCarthy
The Unabomber
Karla Faye Tucker
Lizzie Borden
Charles Manson
David Berkowitz (Son of Sam)
John Wayne Gacy
The Zodiac Killer
The Green River Killer
Jim Jones
James Earl Ray
Ed Gein
Robert Courtney
Boss Tweed
Al Capone
Billy The Kid
Jesse James
Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker
Leona Helmsley
John Dillinger
Fred Phelps
Robert E. Lee
Mark Chapman
Al Capone
David Koresh
Bryant and May
Blanck and Harris

I'll also add:

Lee Harvey Oswald
Julius and Ethel Rosenburg
Nathan Bedford Forrest
Robert Hanssen
Aldrich Ames
John Walker
Kenneth Lay
Bernie Ebbers
Joseph Hazelwood

Anyone got others to add? Or did I miss any realistic options offered earlier?
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Old 08-31-2009, 11:42 PM   #124
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I'd like to make a late case for removing Benedict Arnold from the list. And yes, I would do this at a dinner party. He was a very effective leader in the Revolutionary War. The hero of Saratoga. The victory at Saratoga is what convinced the French that the war was winnable, and therefore caused them to come in on our side.

It's conceivable we could have lost the war without Arnold. There is no way that his failed plot to surrender West Point harmed us in any significant way. While he was an effective general, Benedict Arnold was a completely incompetent traitor.

There. I did it. He fails Rule #1.

Also - Arnold's primary beef was frustration with his leadership not recognizing him and promoting him accordingly. He was kind of the "Jay Cutler" of Revolutionary War generals. His anger caused schisms in his allegiance between the colonies and Britain, which legitimately calls into question Rule #4.
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Old 09-01-2009, 12:41 AM   #125
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David Rockefeller is an unknown villain. He is truly treacherous.
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Old 09-01-2009, 12:46 AM   #126
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David Rockefeller is an unknown villain. He is truly treacherous.
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Old 09-01-2009, 01:17 AM
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Old 09-01-2009, 01:34 AM
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Old 09-01-2009, 02:30 AM   #127
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Old 09-01-2009, 02:41 AM   #128
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Old 09-01-2009, 02:51 AM
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Old 09-01-2009, 04:37 AM   #129
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Old 09-01-2009, 05:10 AM   #130
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Old 09-01-2009, 05:55 AM   #131
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We'll have an exception for people living on the American continent prior to 1783 in areas that would eventually become U.S. territory.
Welll....what kind of evidentiary proof do we need? Short or long form birth certificate, and must it be an original or will a copy suffice?









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Old 09-01-2009, 05:58 AM   #132
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George W. Bush
Dick Cheney
Henry Ford
Robert Fulton
Eli Whitney
John D. Rockefeller
Robert Oppenheimer
Lyndon Johnson
Karl Rove
Not that I agree with any of these choices, but there is some pretty clever thinking behind some of them.
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Old 09-01-2009, 06:02 AM   #133
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Old 09-01-2009, 06:13 AM   #134
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There have been some very good choices proposed so far, obviously. I'd have to go with Al Capone out of the ones I've seen, as the person who caused the most economic AND personal devastation.

Lucky Luciano, Carlo Gambino and Anthony Accardo, probably in that order, would be right up therew with Capone. If you ascribe the acts of their entire empires to them, then the amount of murder and misery they caused would far exceed what a Ted Bundy or any other single person could really do in one lifetime, though the individual acts would be "more evil" in the case of a Bundy or Dahmer. More sadistic at least.

And while those guys were a hero to a very small segment of society, I trust it's still in line with Rule #2.
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Old 09-01-2009, 06:43 AM   #135
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