Chiefs are 63m under the cap

[ShowtimeSBMVP]

nick wright@getnickwrightReply
Always KC. RT @MattPomPom Teams with most salary cap room(in millions): KC $63, TB $60, CIN $60, DEN $51, WAS $48, JAC $45.

[Easy 6]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

No, they are not proof.

The best tacklers in the league often come from the worst defenses, because they can't get off the field. Mike Maslowski was a tackling machine for a horrible Chiefs' defense. Kyle Orton was one of the most productive passers in the league two years ago. Terrell Davis is one of the most productive single-season rushers of all time, and Denver always had bad RBs run for over 1,000 yards.

None of those guys are elite. Yes, you have to be pretty good to get past a certain level of production. But when you're trying to compare Bowe to Fitzgerald or Andre Johnson, it's pretty damn important to understand how they're getting yards rather than whether they're getting the same number of yards.

While its true that most stats can be spun either way, that doesnt tell the whole story about Bowe imo.

Who's the truly elite WR who has made more with less over the last 5 years? maybe Andre Johnson until Schaub arrived? Some say Bowes being force fed the ball, which is true, but cant that be said for Fitzgerald the last two years?

What i'm saying, is compare the consensus elite guys against the situations Bowe has had to endure... he SHINED with fricking Damon Huard for cripe pete, put Bowe in a stable environment with a starter quality qb & he's going to give you top 5 numbers.

[O.city]

Bowe is gonna put up good to great number because that's what he is. A good to great wr. We don't need the top wr in the league to win a SB.


I don't think he can ever be in the class of those top 3 guys, simply becasue they are that talented. It's not a knock on Bowe, but a compliment to those guys.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by scott free

While its true that most stats can be spun either way, that doesnt tell the whole story about Bowe imo.

Who's the truly elite WR who has made more with less over the last 5 years? maybe Andre Johnson until Schaub arrived? Some say Bowes being force fed the ball, which is true, but cant that be said for Fitzgerald the last two years?

What i'm saying, is compare the consensus elite guys against the situations Bowe has had to endure, put Bowe in a stable environment with a starter quality qb & he's going to give you top 5 numbers.

I think you have to throw Fitzgerald and Calvin Johnson out of the discussion.

They are clearly the elite receivers in this league right now.

But anyone that argues that a better QB wouldn't have an impact on DBowe's production is a ****ing moron (I'm looking directly at you Chiefzilla).

Andre Johnson had a couple of good games against the Bengals and Ravens, but he, in no way, shape, or form, took over either of those games and beasted the way that Fitzgerald did in the Cards SB run in '06.

TJ Yates.

Kurt Warner.

QBs make a difference.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by scott free

While its true that most stats can be spun either way, that doesnt tell the whole story about Bowe imo.

Who's the truly elite WR who has made more with less over the last 5 years? maybe Andre Johnson until Schaub arrived? Some say Bowes being force fed the ball, which is true, but cant that be said for Fitzgerald the last two years?

What i'm saying, is compare the consensus elite guys against the situations Bowe has had to endure, put Bowe in a stable environment with a starter quality qb & he's going to give you top 5 numbers.

And Fitzgerald has been almost exactly 10% better than Bowe the last 2 years.

2300 yds vs. 2550

153 catches vs 170

Bowe has more TDs, but I think it's time to start looking at that TD stat for what it was - the outlier.

Think about it - if you take those 15 and make them, I dunno - 10, then he had 80 catches for 1,100 yards and 10 TDs. In other words - just a pretty nice season. And then last year he'd have done the same thing. So at the apex of his career, he would've been an 75 catch, 1100 yard, 7-10 TD/season guy.

Those are all very good numbers, but Fitz is better than those by about 10% with a QB situation that has been every bit as bad as Bowes. And when Fitz had a legitimate HOF quarterback in Warner, was he challenging 20 TDs? Nope, not even close. Fitz is a better wideout than Bowe, I don't see that as open for discussion. And with one of the best pure passers of his generation at the helm, he didn't 'approach single season records'.

People are overstating a QBs impact on an individual #1 WRs numbers. The massive benefit of an elite quarterback is not that he makes 1 WRs numbers better, but that he knows so much more about what is going on that he makes every player on the field a legitimate weapon. Sure, there are going to be times that Manning sees Bowe open when Cassel wouldn't have. Then again, there are going to be times that he sees Breaston as 'more' open than Bowe was and throws the ball to Breason when Cassel would have forced it into Bowe.

History doesn't lie here. Aaron Rodgers would make Baldwin and Breaston significantly more valuable, but he wouldn't create a massive leap in Bowe's numbers.

[Epic Fail 007]

Because we are going after drew brees duh

[O.city]

Just read on Insider that the Jets might dump Dustin Keller.


Interested?

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by milkman

I think you have to throw Fitzgerald and Calvin Johnson out of the discussion.

They are clearly the elite receivers in this league right now.

But anyone that argues that a better QB wouldn't have an impact on DBowe's production is a ****ing moron (I'm looking directly at you Chiefzilla).

Andre Johnson had a couple of good games against the Bengals and Ravens, but he, in no way, shape, or form, took over either of those games and beasted the way that Fitzgerald did in the Cards SB run in '06.

TJ Yates.

Kurt Warner.

QBs make a difference.

When did I ever say a new QB doesn't make Bowe better? People here are acting like a good QB is holding Bowe back from being an elite receiver. It's not. He is physically limited from being elite, probably. Yes, a good QB is probably holding him back from being a better receiver. I'm saying that right now, nobody knows yes or no if he's a clutch WR (we'll find out when we get a new QB). I'm saying he doesn't have the insane trade value people think he has. And I'm saying he doesn't stack up to elite WRs.

As for productivity... this is driving me a little crazy too because it's driven by stats. Getting a new QB doesn't guarantee productivity statwise. In fact, Rodgers, Brees, and Brady spread the ball around so much that each player is going to touch the ball a little bit less.

As for Fitz and Johnson... you're absolutely wrong on this. You can't blame Andre Johnson for not producing behind TJ Yates, given that he was battling hamstring injuries all season. He was never really 100%. And Larry Fitzgerald had a sprained knee a few years ago and QBs that were a million times worse than Cassel the year after. But Fitzgerald had an incredibly productive season last year behind Kolb and Skelton.

[BossChief]

Calvin Johnson 2010

1120 yards
12 tds

Calvin Johnson 2011

1681 yards
16 tds

What was the difference?

Im saying that if we could get a legit guy like that to throw him the ball, I have no doubts he could put up HUGE numbers because he has shown the ability to put up very impressive numbers with the jokers he has had at quarterback.

If Bowe can catch 15 with Cassel, I think he could add 4-5 more with a legit guy.

I understand there are gonna be some that don't agree with that.

[O.city]

I don't think he would put up that much more Boss in that with a better qb he won't get as many targets.

[BossChief]

Its not all about targets.

Its about ball placement so that our guy can make the catch in stride.

I think people are misunderstanding what Im saying or Im doing a poor job of what Im trying to say.

I think that Bowes peak season with a legit guy would be 18-20 tds in a year...not that he would in any way average that figure.

[jd1020]

Originally Posted by BossChief

Calvin Johnson 2010

1120 yards
12 tds

Calvin Johnson 2011

1681 yards
16 tds

What was the difference?

Im saying that if we could get a legit guy like that to throw him the ball, I have no doubts he could put up HUGE numbers because he has shown the ability to put up very impressive numbers with the jokers he has had at quarterback.

If Bowe can catch 15 with Cassel, I think he could add 4-5 more with a legit guy.

I understand there are gonna be some that don't agree with that.

Bowe caught 15 TDs because of Charles.

Statistically speaking, nothing else from Bowe changed other than the TDs. His catches were down from career highs and his yards were virtually the same.

Bowe caught 15 TDs because the Chiefs were successfully running the ball and Bowe was the only receiver on the team for RZ catches.

A quality QB is going to look at more than just Bowe now that we have Breaston and Baldwin.

[whoman69]

Originally Posted by O.city

Just read on Insider that the Jets might dump Dustin Keller.


Interested?

Don't know a lot about Keller specifically. He would need to be a good blocker to add depth at a position we could really use it.

[Easy 6]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

People are overstating a QBs impact on an individual #1 WRs numbers.

Nice post, but lets take Reggie Wayne as an example...

2010 - 16gp 111rec 1355yds 6td

2011 - 16gp 75rec 960yds 4td

[milkman]

Originally Posted by O.city

I don't think he would put up that much more Boss in that with a better qb he won't get as many targets.

The thing is, if he gets the ball accurately and on time, while his receptions may not go up substantially, his YAC should increase.

And the thing is, with the crap throwing Fitzgerald the ball in 2010, he caught 90 balls for 1137 yards.

In 2011, with better QB play (yes Kolb was better, and Skelton was improved substantially from his rookie season), he caught 10 fewre balls, but for 1411 yards.

A QB that can deliver the ball does make a difference.

[milkman]

And even as bad as the Cards were at QB in 2010, they still attempted nearly 100 more passes than the Chiefs.