News Murder or Castle Doctrine? - Page 8

**Rain Man** · 09-04-2013, 12:49 PM

A case not too far from my hometown.

http://www.therolladailynews.com/app...8&refresh=true

Slaying case may hinge on property rights

STEELVILLE, Mo. — James Crocker had grown weary of the partying canoeists and rafters who encroached on his neatly kept property along Missouri's Meramec River. When he caught a man about to relieve himself on a gravel bar by his yard last month, a nasty confrontation ensued that ended with one person dead and Crocker accused of killing him.

The case against Crocker is the latest to put a spotlight on "castle doctrine" laws, which allow the use of deadly force to protect property. Missouri is among at least 30 states that have enacted the statutes, which supporters say protect gun rights but others insist promote vigilantism.

Crocker's attorney, Michael Bert of St. Louis, said that Crocker was defending himself and his property.

"Here's a man in fear for his life and fearful he might suffer bodily injury," Bert said.

Prosecutors see it differently. Witnesses who testified at a hearing this month said Crocker was angry and raging, shooting into the crowd of people, narrowly missing two others before killing 48-year-old Paul Dart Jr. of Robertsville, Mo. Crocker has been charged with second degree murder.
Even some supporters of the doctrine say the violence seemed avoidable.

"The smart thing is to back away, and nobody seemed to be willing to do that," said Kevin Jamison, an attorney who lobbied for Missouri's castle doctrine bill as a member of the Western Missouri Shooters Alliance.

Crocker, a 59-year-old plastics plant worker with long hair and a thick goatee, lives in a small white frame home on a shaded gravel road about eight miles west of Steelville, the self-proclaimed floating capital of the world. Tens of thousands of people come to the region every year to raft, canoe or kayak down the Meramec and nearby rivers.

Drinking is sometimes part of the outings, resulting in bawdy behavior that doesn't sit well with owners of land that touches the river. Many have complained for years about loud parties, trash left behind and crude behavior.

Herb Smelser, 77, who lives three houses down from Crocker, said it isn't uncommon to find people using his yard as a restroom. The problem was so bad, he said, that he let his grass grow high to discourage trespassers.
Crocker, though, kept his yard trim and tidy — "like a park," Smelser said. To keep out the unwanted, Crocker posted "No Trespassing" and "Private Property" signs along the hill that slopes down to a gravel area along the meandering river.

On July 20, Dart, a carpenter, and around four dozen other members of an extended family gathered at a campground for their annual float trip along the Meramec. A few hours into the trip, Robert and Regina Burgess stopped their canoe on a gravel bar. Robert, who had drunk about three beers, decided to relieve himself, he testified at the preliminary hearing.

Crocker confronted Burgess and other members of the party. When happened then is in dispute, and will be a crucial part of the case.

Burgess and his wife testified that Crocker was immediately agitated and aggressive, firing two shots in their direction — Robert said one hit the ground near his feet. Another bullet hit Dart in the face.

Burgess said it was only after Dart was shot that members of the party picked up rocks to defend themselves against Crocker, who was armed with a 9mm semi-automatic pistol.

"I'm standing there unarmed and the guy's got a gun," Burgess said.
Crocker didn't testify at the hearing, but his attorney gave a different account.

In an interview with The Associated Press, Bert said Crocker politely asked the float trip party to leave. "The response he got was angry and profane," Bert said.

Crocker and those in the float trip party argued over whether the gravel bar was public land or Crocker's. Eventually, the men picked up "softball-sized" rocks and began pelting Crocker, Bert said. He said Crocker suffered head injuries, then fired his gun to defend himself.

"When people say is this a case of the castle doctrine I say, 'yes, kind of,' but more importantly these people were armed with what I would consider weapons," Bert said.

Missouri State Highway Patrol trooper Joseph Peart testified that he saw no evidence that Crocker was injured.

Police said Crocker told them, "I just shot the one closest to me."

Whether or not the floaters were on Crocker's property may be an issue in the case since Missouri law isn't clear on where private property along a waterway begins. Some experts say it starts at the vegetation line; others say property rights extend to the center of a river or stream.

"That may be a critical question," said Jamison, of Kansas City, Mo. "If (Crocker) reasonably believed the man was on his property and he wasn't, I'm not sure that's enough."

Missouri's castle doctrine statute, enacted in 2007, gives residents a legal right to defend themselves and their property against intruders. Supporters of such laws cite a number of cases in which homeowners were able to fend off burglars or other criminals without fear of prosecution. But Florida's law gained notoriety after a neighborhood watch activist, George Zimmerman, fatally shot teen Trayvon Martin, and was acquitted of criminal charges.

A 2012 Texas A&M University study found that homicides ruled justifiable rose by 8 percent in states with "stand-your-ground laws.

In the Missouri case, Crawford County detective Zachary Driskill said he asked Crocker if he could have called police instead of taking matters into his own hands.

"I guess I could have, but it's my property and I was going to protect it," Crocker responded, according to case documents.

WhawhaWhat · 09-04-2013, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu

Yes, I have. And there's plenty of opportunity to run for cover.

If they are throwing rocks, I assumed they were on the side of the river still where the rocks collect. Where would anyone go hide?

WhawhaWhat · 09-04-2013, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scott free

The property owner may have been overzealous, but my money says this big group got cocky with the rocks, their drunken leader, egged on, started approaching and got popped.

Lesson is, don't get drunk and stupid... you usually never know who you're messing with.

Depends on where the guy was. If I was standing behind a tree next to the river while taking a pee and some crazy asshole starts screaming at me, I would probably tell him to **** off too.

Doesn't make it not murder if he killed me, IMO.

patteeu · 09-04-2013, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhawhaWhat

If they are throwing rocks, I assumed they were on the side of the river still where the rocks collect. Where would anyone go hide?

Down river, up river, across the river, wherever.

WhawhaWhat · 09-04-2013, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu

Down river, up river, across the river, wherever.

So your plan for them was to outrun the bullets?

**Easy 6** · 09-04-2013, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhawhaWhat

So your plan for them was to outrun the bullets?

They were almost certainly drunker than cootie brown, in large numbers and getting rowdier by the minute... they started this, i'd bet on it.

"WE'LL PISS WHERE WE WANT YA OLD MOTHER****ER"

WhawhaWhat · 09-04-2013, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scott free

They were almost certainly drunker than cootie brown, in large numbers and getting rowdier by the minute... they started this, i'd bet on it.

"WE'LL PISS WHERE WE WANT YA OLD MOTHER****ER"

Just a difference in opinion, but I see it completely the other way. The guy goes to pee, this old dude comes running out yelling to get off his property and fires off a couple bullets - killing the guy, his friends panic and start chucking rocks to get the guy to back off.

The bullets may have been intended as warning shots but it doesn't matter when one of them kills someone.

**alnorth** · 09-04-2013, 04:34 PM

This isn't even a case where he was trying to stop a thief who was running off with his car or something, so "defending my property" is right out.

**Easy 6** · 09-04-2013, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhawhaWhat

Just a difference in opinion, but I see it completely the other way. The guy goes to pee, this old dude comes running out yelling to get off his property and fires off a couple bullets - killing the guy, his friends panic and start chucking rocks to get the guy to back off.

The bullets may have been intended as warning shots but it doesn't matter when one of them kills someone.

NO one is chucking ****ing rocks at a guy shooting real bullets at them...

The rocks came first, bet on it.

**alnorth** · 09-04-2013, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R8ers

This is 2nd degree murder in NC

It would be murder in Iowa too. If you are outside your home or place of employment around here, then you have a duty to retreat when it is a reasonable possibility. The only question that would be asked in court is "could he have run away?".

patteeu · 09-04-2013, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhawhaWhat

Just a difference in opinion, but I see it completely the other way. The guy goes to pee, this old dude comes running out yelling to get off his property and fires off a couple bullets - killing the guy, his friends panic and start chucking rocks to get the guy to back off.

The bullets may have been intended as warning shots but it doesn't matter when one of them kills someone.

And you're making cracks about outrunning bullets?

WhawhaWhat · 09-04-2013, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu

And you're making cracks about outrunning bullets?

Certainly more plausible than pushing the canoe back into the river and floating down stream to get away while the guy is shooting at you or even abandoning the canoe and running on foot in their water shoes.

Aries Walker · 09-04-2013, 05:05 PM

I suppose it will come as a surprise to absolutely no one that this would also be considered second degree murder here in Maryland.

Except, of course, that the only place in Maryland where you find both guns and water is downtown Baltimore, and if you start taking fire there, you have plenty of rusty dumpsters and discarded syringes to hide behind.

patteeu · 09-04-2013, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhawhaWhat

Certainly more plausible than pushing the canoe back into the river and floating down stream to get away while the guy is shooting at you or even abandoning the canoe and running on foot in their water shoes.

No, not more plausible. Not even plausible at all.

**Rain Man** · 09-04-2013, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aries Walker

I suppose it will come as a surprise to absolutely no one that this would also be considered second degree murder here in Maryland.

Except, of course, that the only place in Maryland where you find both guns and water is downtown Baltimore, and if you start taking fire there, you have plenty of rusty dumpsters and discarded syringes to hide behind.

Also, in downtown Baltimore there's no element of surprise since you're expecting to come under fire.

vailpass · 09-04-2013, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scott free

NO one is chucking ****ing rocks at a guy shooting real bullets at them...

The rocks came first, bet on it.

For sure.

View Poll Results: You're on the jury. Do you acquit or convict based on the story below?
Acquit. A man's home is his castle.	18	24.66%
Convict. Send him up the river.	44	60.27%
I can't serve on a jury. I'm crazy, I'm telling you. CRAZY!	11	15.07%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

09-04-2013, 12:49 PM
Rain Man Seize life. Be an ermine. Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: My house Casino cash: $-692449 VARSITY	Murder or Castle Doctrine? A case not too far from my hometown. http://www.therolladailynews.com/app...8&refresh=true Slaying case may hinge on property rights STEELVILLE, Mo. — James Crocker had grown weary of the partying canoeists and rafters who encroached on his neatly kept property along Missouri's Meramec River. When he caught a man about to relieve himself on a gravel bar by his yard last month, a nasty confrontation ensued that ended with one person dead and Crocker accused of killing him. The case against Crocker is the latest to put a spotlight on "castle doctrine" laws, which allow the use of deadly force to protect property. Missouri is among at least 30 states that have enacted the statutes, which supporters say protect gun rights but others insist promote vigilantism. Crocker's attorney, Michael Bert of St. Louis, said that Crocker was defending himself and his property. "Here's a man in fear for his life and fearful he might suffer bodily injury," Bert said. Prosecutors see it differently. Witnesses who testified at a hearing this month said Crocker was angry and raging, shooting into the crowd of people, narrowly missing two others before killing 48-year-old Paul Dart Jr. of Robertsville, Mo. Crocker has been charged with second degree murder. Even some supporters of the doctrine say the violence seemed avoidable. "The smart thing is to back away, and nobody seemed to be willing to do that," said Kevin Jamison, an attorney who lobbied for Missouri's castle doctrine bill as a member of the Western Missouri Shooters Alliance. Crocker, a 59-year-old plastics plant worker with long hair and a thick goatee, lives in a small white frame home on a shaded gravel road about eight miles west of Steelville, the self-proclaimed floating capital of the world. Tens of thousands of people come to the region every year to raft, canoe or kayak down the Meramec and nearby rivers. Drinking is sometimes part of the outings, resulting in bawdy behavior that doesn't sit well with owners of land that touches the river. Many have complained for years about loud parties, trash left behind and crude behavior. Herb Smelser, 77, who lives three houses down from Crocker, said it isn't uncommon to find people using his yard as a restroom. The problem was so bad, he said, that he let his grass grow high to discourage trespassers. Crocker, though, kept his yard trim and tidy — "like a park," Smelser said. To keep out the unwanted, Crocker posted "No Trespassing" and "Private Property" signs along the hill that slopes down to a gravel area along the meandering river. On July 20, Dart, a carpenter, and around four dozen other members of an extended family gathered at a campground for their annual float trip along the Meramec. A few hours into the trip, Robert and Regina Burgess stopped their canoe on a gravel bar. Robert, who had drunk about three beers, decided to relieve himself, he testified at the preliminary hearing. Crocker confronted Burgess and other members of the party. When happened then is in dispute, and will be a crucial part of the case. Burgess and his wife testified that Crocker was immediately agitated and aggressive, firing two shots in their direction — Robert said one hit the ground near his feet. Another bullet hit Dart in the face. Burgess said it was only after Dart was shot that members of the party picked up rocks to defend themselves against Crocker, who was armed with a 9mm semi-automatic pistol. "I'm standing there unarmed and the guy's got a gun," Burgess said. Crocker didn't testify at the hearing, but his attorney gave a different account. In an interview with The Associated Press, Bert said Crocker politely asked the float trip party to leave. "The response he got was angry and profane," Bert said. Crocker and those in the float trip party argued over whether the gravel bar was public land or Crocker's. Eventually, the men picked up "softball-sized" rocks and began pelting Crocker, Bert said. He said Crocker suffered head injuries, then fired his gun to defend himself. "When people say is this a case of the castle doctrine I say, 'yes, kind of,' but more importantly these people were armed with what I would consider weapons," Bert said. Missouri State Highway Patrol trooper Joseph Peart testified that he saw no evidence that Crocker was injured. Police said Crocker told them, "I just shot the one closest to me." Whether or not the floaters were on Crocker's property may be an issue in the case since Missouri law isn't clear on where private property along a waterway begins. Some experts say it starts at the vegetation line; others say property rights extend to the center of a river or stream. "That may be a critical question," said Jamison, of Kansas City, Mo. "If (Crocker) reasonably believed the man was on his property and he wasn't, I'm not sure that's enough." Missouri's castle doctrine statute, enacted in 2007, gives residents a legal right to defend themselves and their property against intruders. Supporters of such laws cite a number of cases in which homeowners were able to fend off burglars or other criminals without fear of prosecution. But Florida's law gained notoriety after a neighborhood watch activist, George Zimmerman, fatally shot teen Trayvon Martin, and was acquitted of criminal charges. A 2012 Texas A&M University study found that homicides ruled justifiable rose by 8 percent in states with "stand-your-ground laws. In the Missouri case, Crawford County detective Zachary Driskill said he asked Crocker if he could have called police instead of taking matters into his own hands. "I guess I could have, but it's my property and I was going to protect it," Crocker responded, according to case documents.
Posts: 145,520

09-04-2013, 04:34 PM	#112
alnorth . Join Date: Dec 2002 Casino cash: $57156239	This isn't even a case where he was trying to stop a thief who was running off with his car or something, so "defending my property" is right out. __________________ how many emo kids does it take to change a lightbulb? HOW MANY?! none they just sit in the dark and cry
Posts: 36,130

09-04-2013, 05:05 PM	#117
Aries Walker Back again, again. Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: York, PA Casino cash: $9503357	I suppose it will come as a surprise to absolutely no one that this would also be considered second degree murder here in Maryland. Except, of course, that the only place in Maryland where you find both guns and water is downtown Baltimore, and if you start taking fire there, you have plenty of rusty dumpsters and discarded syringes to hide behind.
Posts: 8,213

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