Illegal Immigration: What should we do?

[Mr. Kotter]

MODS: I'm interested in finding out what CP members think about this issue, and while I understand it's an issue ripe for political discussion.....I'd ask for it to remain in the Lounge for a couple of days, if at all possible, before moving it to its inevitable death in DC.

Fellow ChiefsPlanet posters: Can we try to have a reasonable discussion over this issue without it becoming too heated and denigrating into purely partisan demagoguery or racist insults? Please?

FWIW, I'm following the debate over immigration legislation somewhat closely, and I'm trying to figure out what the middle ground--if there is any--on the issue might be.

Thanks in advance for you opinions and posts.

Poll to follow, shortly....

[Boozer]

Originally Posted by jspchief

Regardless, I don't see how people not paying taxes could possibly be better than people paying taxes.

There's a lot of fiscal conservatives that would beg to differ.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Boozer

There's a lot of fiscal conservatives that would beg to differ.

Heh. Different kind of "not paying taxes".

[DJJasonp]

Originally Posted by Inspector

Naw, no crying here.

I'm just into my own selfish ideas.

And....I want the same treatment as anyone else....when it comes to breaking laws.

Amen to that....

I posed this the other day to friends on the other side of this topic from me.....

When is it "ok" to be upset about people committing felonies and being inside America ILLEGALLY?

What if we found out besides the 100's of mexicans entering our country illegally on a daily basis......that 100 Iranians were entering our country illegally daily...would you be upset then? What if 100 known Al-Qaida were entering our country illegally each day....would that upset you?

The point here, albeit a bit extreme, is that we cant be "ok" with people breaking our immigration laws.....and we cant grant people who willingly break these laws, willingly create tax burdens on all of us (citizens), and willingly contribute to the degeneration of our school systems in cities such as Los Angeles and San Diego....it's not ok.

I understand the implications and cheap labor....but it's time to tackle this problem at it's source....the businesses who hire (illegally) illegal aliens to do work. On top of that, crack-downs at the border (although expensive) must be in place.

I realize it will cost way too much to round everyone up and send them back....but no one should be granted amnesty....they should have a 60 or 90 day time frame where they have to register....pay a tax fine (which can be deducted over a course of a year to two years), etc.

If, after the 90 days, someone is found to be unregistered, they're deported. Period.

I also pose this....the businesses taking advantage of this situation arent patriots in my opinion and are no better than the illegals immigrants. Harsh penalties for that should be enforced as well.

I work in the Education industry.....and watch as hundreds of kids try to apply for a study visa (legally) and are turned down. 9/11 has changed a lot of things (and changed the way I think as well about these sort of things)....but it's not fair to the people who try to become citizens, or study in the USA legally (and are turned down), to sit back and watch criminals be granted amnesty for their actions.

I havent even touched on the crime, education, and medical costs to this situation....

The education situation in California would make you sick to your stomach....and illegal immigrants have a huge part in that.

[BucEyedPea]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

Here's one excerpt from the Cato Institute site, a longitudinal study of immigrantion since the 1940s, including "illegals:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/pr-imtax.html

Net Balance for Undocumented Aliens

In the previous chapter, ... for illegals.[/B]

EDIT: I see Donger just cited the same study.....I'll have to examine it more closely to see the distinction between immigrants and illegals they are making....

I usually read the Cato Institute but it is Libertarian ( I have a libertarian streak but I am not a pure libertarian). Libertarians do not believe in the idea of having borders at all. They'd just as soon do away with them. Sorry, but I don't go for that....I believe in nation states and national sovereignty.

Seems to me that there are contrary facts on these numbers. Must be each side is using them selectively.

So let's say the numbers back the amnesty folks up....I still think forgiving this problem with leniency just encourages it even more. It encourages a disrespect for another nation's laws.Globaloney! What I don't get with the libertarians, even the right-libertarians, is that they also claim to support the idea of "rule of law." That's not supporting "rule of law"...it's rewarding lawlessness. Never a good thing...imo.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by jspchief

....Regardless, I don't see how people not paying taxes could possibly be better than people paying taxes..

The thing about illegals is....if you deport all illegals--you deport the ones who are a "drain," then you also deport the ones who are contributing (some of them, significantly) in terms of revenues into government coffers....that's where the "net gain" comes in.

Originally Posted by jspchief

....Also, I don't know how recent those studies are, but I wonder if they take into account the amount of tax dollars that are now being spent on making everything bilingual. I know that schools in my area didn't have ESL teachers 10 years ago. I also know that things like the IRS publishing their forms in a second language has to have been an added expense for the government.

I'll examine that a bit later, if I get time. But those are very good questions.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

I usually read the Cato Institute but it is Libertarian ( I have a libertarian streak but I am not a pure libertarian). Libertarians do not believe in the idea of having borders at all. They'd just as soon do away with them. Sorry, but I don't go for that....I believe in nation states and national sovereignty.

Seems to me that there are contrary facts on these numbers. Must be each side is using them selectively.

So let's say the numbers back the amnesty folks up....I still think forgiving this problem with leniency just encourages it even more. It encourages a disrespect for another nation's laws.Globaloney! What I don't get with the libertarians, even the right-libertarians, is that they also claim to support the idea of "rule of law." That's not supporting "rule of law"...it's rewarding lawlessness. Never a good thing...imo.

I'm not at all for easy or complete amnesty. And I agree, if they've broken the law....there should be consequences. But with 11-12 million already here, what do we do....? Deport them all? Wow; that seems expensive and harsh. Build a fence and guard it closely? Maybe; but that's gonna be very expensive to maintain, and it may not even really work. Drop the hammer on businesses who hire illegals? Lots of people seem opposed to that, and it would drive up inflation in some sectors in some areas....although the extent is really hard to predict?

So what do we do?

I agree about rule of law....but maybe it's the law that needs to be looked at closely and changed to accomodate the reality of the situation? As for those who've already broken the law.....how about some kind of plea bargain of sorts?

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

The thing about illegals is....if you deport all illegals--you deport the ones who are a "drain," then you also deport the ones who are contributing (some of them, significantly) in terms of revenues into government coffers....that's where the "net gain" comes in.

I don't think deportation is anywhere close to the solution.

My point is, we need to get them all contributing, instead of just some of them.

[memyselfI]

Originally Posted by Donger

What tripe. Last time I checked, it was right around $190 to apply and file for residency, and the forms are readily available.

* Edit - I was wrong. It's $330 to file form N-400, Application for Naturalization.

uh, you aren't including the attorney fees necessary to fight deportation once your 'illegal' status becomes known to the INS. If you turn yourself in as overstaying your visa, and therefore illegal, you'd better have yourself a good attorney by your side. If the INS decides to play hardball it could cost you thousands of dollars.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by memyselfI

uh, you aren't including the attorney fees necessary to fight deportation once your 'illegal' status becomes known to the INS. If you turn yourself in as overstaying your visa, and therefore illegal, you'd better have yourself a good attorney by your side. If the INS decides to play hardball it could cost you thousands of dollars.

I don't know about California, but in the midwest that simply isn't true. They don't play hardball, and they rarely if ever deport anyone that is making the effort to regain legal status.

[Donger]

Originally Posted by memyselfI

uh, you aren't including the attorney fees necessary to fight deportation once your 'illegal' status becomes known to the INS. If you turn yourself in as overstaying your visa, and therefore illegal, you'd better have yourself a good attorney by your side. If the INS decides to play hardball it could cost you thousands of dollars.

They wouldn't need attorney fees to fight deportation if they hadn't immigrated illegally, now would they?

[harpes]

I say we deport all the lazy americans that are on welfare and keep the latinos.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by jspchief

I don't think deportation is anywhere close to the solution.

My point is, we need to get them all contributing, instead of just some of them.

I agree completely.

But that would require some sort of amnesty, some sort of expedited naturalization and/or guest worker program, and some sort of increased enforcement, penalties, and prosecution of business that, within a revamped immigration system, continue to hire illegals. All three of those things are pretty controversial...

And THAT is where it will be difficult to get legislation.....

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

But that would require some sort of amnesty, some sort of expedited naturalization and/or guest worker program, and some sort of increased enforcement, penalties, and prosecution of business that, within a revamped immigration system, continue to hire illegals. All three of those things are pretty controversial...

Yep. Regardless of how much we want to punish the law breakers, it's just not practical.

I would say that businesses need to be given a grace period that essentially accounts for the amount of time that it takes their illegal employees to become legal. Otherwise, you're expecting them to just get rid of what could be a major part of their workforce. Given the choice of losing your business due to an exodus of labor, or taking your chances at getting caught, a lot of employers will take their chances.

But more importantly, before we do any of that, I feel that we have to insure that more won't be able to enter illegally. Otherwise we're setting ourselves up for a repeat of the situation, just like we did in the 80s.

[Amnorix]

One problem here is that there are something like 11 million illegals IIRC, and probably 10 million of them are working jobs that 99.9% of Americans can't do or don't want. Also, 99.99% of illegals want nothing more than to make an "honest" (except for their illegal immigratn status) wage for their work.

If that's reality, and my understanding is that it is, then we need to adjust our laws to be realistic.

I don't really care what we do, or don't do, but what I'd like to see are ENFORCEABLE and REALISTIC laws that consider:

1. the needs of the American economy;

2. the fact that poor workers in other countries will inevitably want to come here;

3. the fact that just shipping them back isn't effective.

So I'd be in favor of a large-scale amnesty, a broadened immigration permitting system, and harsher penalties for those who are illegally entering.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by jspchief

....But more importantly, before we do any of that, I feel that we have to insure that more won't be able to enter illegally. Otherwise we're setting ourselves up for a repeat of the situation, just like we did in the 80s.

Yup.

And that brings us back to the fence, increased surveillance and border control, and possible military involvement (short of dramatic increases in the Border Patrol forces), UNLESS we can decrease the incentive for them to come in the first place. And that is a much more elusive problem....