Illegal Immigration: What should we do?

[Mr. Kotter]

MODS: I'm interested in finding out what CP members think about this issue, and while I understand it's an issue ripe for political discussion.....I'd ask for it to remain in the Lounge for a couple of days, if at all possible, before moving it to its inevitable death in DC.

Fellow ChiefsPlanet posters: Can we try to have a reasonable discussion over this issue without it becoming too heated and denigrating into purely partisan demagoguery or racist insults? Please?

FWIW, I'm following the debate over immigration legislation somewhat closely, and I'm trying to figure out what the middle ground--if there is any--on the issue might be.

Thanks in advance for you opinions and posts.

Poll to follow, shortly....

[Rausch]

Originally Posted by jspchief

This is what I've been trying to tell people, and they simply refuse to believe it. Anyone that's had to deal with hiring at low wage levels understands. People look at unemployment rates and think there are lines of unemployed Americans that simply can't get jobs, when the reality is 75% of those people are unemployable or simply don't want a job, and the other 25% are selective about which job they'll work. And it's reached a point where it's no longer about cheap labor in most states. Employers are paying good wages to anyone.

That problem is also regional. In faster growing states (Arizona, Nevada) the lack of workers is obvious. In central Mo. it's not as much of a problem. Even here though it's hard to find someone reliable for a part time position (20 hrs and under a week) that starts at $7.50 an hour.

The problem is raising children in a welfare state that shows them they don't HAVE to work. The entire working class culture has changed and that's the problem...

[Rausch]

Originally Posted by Hydrae

Having read 210 posts on this issue it seems to me that the biggest issue most people have with illegal aliens has to do with the amount of tax generated money that is spent to "support" them whether it be schools, welfare, food stamps, medical costs, etc.

Is this a fair statement?

For most of the BB it appears that way. It isn't to me, but it's definitely a big factor.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Hydrae

Having read 210 posts on this issue it seems to me that the biggest issue most people have with illegal aliens has to do with the amount of tax generated money that is spent to "support" them whether it be schools, welfare, food stamps, medical costs, etc.

Is this a fair statement?

My problem isn't neccessarily the tax burden itself, but that there are a lot of them that don't pay taxes to help offset that burden.

And on a much simpler scale, it's a matter of them playing by a different set of rules than we have to. I think it's a natural reaction to be upset by that.

[Rausch]

Originally Posted by jspchief

My problem isn't neccessarily the tax burden itself, but that there are a lot of them that don't pay taxes to help offset that burden.

And on a much simpler scale, it's a matter of them playing by a different set of rules than we have to. I think it's a natural reaction to be upset by that.

And again, what happens when the whole latino immigrant (legal or illegal) culture gets tired of doing our bidge work? Unlike most of white America they're actually willing to get up off their asses and do something about it...

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Rausch

And again, what happens when the whole latino immigrant (legal or illegal) culture gets tired of doing our bidge work? Unlike most of white America they're actually willing to get up off their asses and do something about it...

I actually said earlier in this thread that rotating work visas might be the answer. Only let them enjoy the spoils of American wages for so many years before they have to take a few years off. Remind them that lousy American wages are still ten times Mexican wages.

I know that may sound a little harsh, but I look at it from the perspective that we are providing each other with a service. I get workers for cheaper than I normally would, and you get a job paying more than you would otherwise make in mexico.

[Hydrae]

Originally Posted by jspchief

My problem isn't neccessarily the tax burden itself, but that there are a lot of them that don't pay taxes to help offset that burden.

And on a much simpler scale, it's a matter of them playing by a different set of rules than we have to. I think it's a natural reaction to be upset by that.

The whole tax issue is a different discussion, IMO as our current set up sucks in many, many ways.

Then there is the point I was heading towards with my first question. We need to get rid of the entitlement society we are burdened with already. It is not just illegals who get these entitlements (which blows my mind as to how they can qualify but that is another matter also) but those "lazy S.O.B.s who won't work" in the first place. There are enough helping organizations out there now from the local chuches to the Salvation Army that can and will help the less fortunate without needing to get the Feds involved in supporting them or taking the money from my wallet to fund it.

Sorry, got sidetracked. I am of the feeling that this is not as big an issue as it appears right now. In answer to someone's question at the beginning of this thread, yes this is today's Gay Marriage. I honestly think the Repiblicans are upping the media hype on immigration to take the focus for the upcoming election off issues like the Iraq situation or whether we have a competent president or not. If you can get people to focus on an issue you can control the talk about you can more easily hit the talking points and get the votes. In the meantime the real issues that people actually worry about everyday get ignored just like every other election.

[Rausch]

Originally Posted by jspchief

I actually said earlier in this thread that rotating work visas might be the answer. Only let them enjoy the spoils of American wages for so many years before they have to take a few years off. Remind them that lousy American wages are still ten times Mexican wages.

I know that may sound a little harsh, but I look at it from the perspective that we are providing each other with a service. I get workers for cheaper than I normally would, and you get a job paying more than you would otherwise make in mexico.

To me the problem is we really aren't providing them with the persuit of happiness, just survival. The 2nd generation (born in America) will have a much better shot but we aren't doing much to help. By allowing them to come/stay as illegals we're also limiting them to mostly low paying jobs. You aren't getting into management or an ownership role while being illegal.

And what happens once all these low paying jobs are filled, but more illegals keep coming?

What happens if this nation finds out what a real depression is?

[Rausch]

Originally Posted by Hydrae

The whole tax issue is a different discussion, IMO as our current set up sucks in many, many ways.

I'd love to see us adopt the fair tax but there's no way D.C. lawmakers would ever allow it...

[Hydrae]

Originally Posted by Rausch

I'd love to see us adopt the fair tax but there's no way D.C. lawmakers would ever allow it...

I am reading a book about the Fair Tax by Neil Boortz (not one of my favorite talk show people). It is an interesting read and I intend to put up a post in the DC forum to get some discussion on the idea.

If enacted, I think this shift in how taxes are collected changes some of the points of the immigration issue.

[Calcountry]

I say, build the fence. The government can construct it with people standing on the Mexican side of the line, so the labor won't cost much.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by dirk digler

This is a subject I have been passionate about for the last 5+ years and having been involved in hiring illegal or supposed illegal immigrants I feel I have a pretty good insight on the subject.

I worked as a Restaurant Manager in Overland Park, KS for 3 years and let me tell you it was EXTREMELY hard to hire American workers. Johnson County is one of the wealthiest counties in the US and the kids that restaurants depend on to work during the summer aren't available because their parents are rich and so they don't have to work. So we started hiring Hispanics for these jobs and at one time 80% of my crew was Hispanic. Now alot of them had papers and SSN cards and we had a process to verify their numbers but most them admitted in private they were illegal but after a while I didn't care because I needed the help.

With that being said I believe we need to get this huge problem under control. Here is my proposal:

1. Build a high-tech fence and defend with the military. This is a National Security issue first and foremost. I like Donger's idea of 2 warning shots and then a kill shot. We needed to stop the bleeding 5 years ago.

2. STOP ALL LEGAL Immigration for 5-7 years while we get this under control.

3. DO NOT actively pursue any illegal immigrants in the US right now unless they have committed crimes other than just being illegal. If the INS or the police stumble upon illegal immigrants we will deport them.

4. Start a National ID card program.

5. Stop all government services to illegals and if they can't produce legal documents then they will be deported.

I appreciate your passion for the subject, and I must say, my intial reactions and thoughts on the subject fall not to far from yours. I just don't know that your approach will work, UNLESS we also target those businesses hiring illegal aliens with fines and punishment for future violations. Cleaning up the mess, without addressing the cause would only ensure it would happen again down the road. And that leads us back to who's gonna fill those jobs, that you, jsp, and others seem convinced that Americans apparently do not want. Because I don't know if it would fly, or even if it's wise:

1. Fence sounds good, but will it really work? Or will illegals just find a way around our very expensive "band-aid" as some suggest?

2. Stopping legal immigration for 5-7 years sounds a bit harsh....and it punishes people who've been waiting in the "legal" line for the actions of illegals. It just strikes me as, almost Anti-American....

3. Deport those illegals "found," but don't look for them? I don't understand that one, I guess...

4. National ID? I'd be for it, but that's one that will be tough to sell to many libertarian types for fear they would be misused.

5. I don't support government programs for illegals, but deportation of those who've lived here for many years and held productive jobs seems harsh.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be consequences. I'd support fines, payment of taxes they've neglected, and a rigorous naturalization process. Economically and realistically, deporting 11-12 million illegals seems unneccesary, expensive, and unwise given the potential economic fall-out that you yourself allude to.

[banyon]

Originally Posted by dirk digler

This is a subject I have been passionate about for the last 5+ years and having been involved in hiring illegal or supposed illegal immigrants I feel I have a pretty good insight on the subject.

I worked as a Restaurant Manager in Overland Park, KS for 3 years and let me tell you it was EXTREMELY hard to hire American workers. Johnson County is one of the wealthiest counties in the US and the kids that restaurants depend on to work during the summer aren't available because their parents are rich and so they don't have to work. So we started hiring Hispanics for these jobs and at one time 80% of my crew was Hispanic. Now alot of them had papers and SSN cards and we had a process to verify their numbers but most them admitted in private they were illegal but after a while I didn't care because I needed the help.

With that being said I believe we need to get this huge problem under control. Here is my proposal:

1. Build a high-tech fence and defend with the military. This is a National Security issue first and foremost. I like Donger's idea of 2 warning shots and then a kill shot. We needed to stop the bleeding 5 years ago.

2. STOP ALL LEGAL Immigration for 5-7 years while we get this under control.

3. DO NOT actively pursue any illegal immigrants in the US right now unless they have committed crimes other than just being illegal. If the INS or the police stumble upon illegal immigrants we will deport them.

4. Start a National ID card program.

5. Stop all government services to illegals and if they can't produce legal documents then they will be deported.

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Originally Posted by Mr. "blue-dog democrat" Kotter

I appreciate your passion for the subject, and I must say, my intial reactions and thoughts on the subject fall not to far from yours. I just don't know that your approach will work, UNLESS we also target those businesses hiring illegal aliens with fines and punishment for future violations. Cleaning up the mess, without addressing the cause would only ensure it would happen again down the road. And that leads us back to who's gonna fill those jobs, that you, jsp, and others seem convinced that Americans apparently do not want. Because I don't know if it would fly, or even if it's wise... Economically and realistically, deporting 11-12 million illegals seems unneccesary, expensive, and unwise given the potential economic fall-out that you yourself allude to.

I believe that I differ from both of you on this matter.

Digler's compaint is that "all of us in Johnson County are too rich to find anybody to do our minimum wage work "?

I understand that in some industries there might be a valid problem finding available labor, but not this case. Here's a novel idea: since you are so f***ing rich, why don't you pay enough for workers in less fortunate areas of KC to commute into your area of town?

Oh I know why.

unmitigated $$$GREED$$$.

[ChiefsLV]

Someone tell me how building a wall to prevent people from illegally entering the country is racist.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by banyon

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I believe that I differ from both of you on this matter.

Digler's compaint is that "all of us in Johnson County are too rich to find anybody to do our minimum wage work "?

I understand that in some industries there might be a valid problem finding available labor, but not this case. Here's a novel idea: since you are so f***ing rich, why don't you pay enough for workers in less fortunate areas of KC to commute into your area of town?

Oh I know why.

unmitigated $$$GREED$$$.

jspchiefs and a number of others, who own businesses and have posted in the thread suggest otherwise. They maintain, based on their experiences, that many Americans refuse to work in those jobs even at wages considerably ABOVE minimum wage...

But, if you had bothered to read the thread, of course you'd know that.

[Demonpenz]

i don't know why these mexicans are working so hard. All i would do is try to get raped by a lacross team. Boom Retirement