OK lets see it

[Dave Lane]

Whos got some kick butt video of the greatest LB in NFL history Aaron Curry? What I've found is really pretty unimpressive. I can't see in film why he's ranked so highly. Anyone have some good video they can point me too?

[Mecca]

No offense or anything but Charley Casserly was a brutal GM.

[philfree]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

This.

The whole point is that even the BEST OLB's don't often go in the Top 5. The best ILB has gone that high ONCE.

Look at the above post as proof.

So, people think that Curry is better than all of those ILB's, and most of the OLB's in past drafts?

The people who have defended Curry have done so because they think he's a better prospect in this draft then the other prospects in this draft. It's all about this draft and the players in it and nothing more. Well unless you want to reach for positional value and then it becomes trying to prove you're right.


PhilFree

[Saccopoo]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

That's not at ALL what I said. Quit putting words in my mouth. I never said it happened with regularity, only that OLB's are taken that high much more than ILB's.

"Quite a few" doesn't have to equal much more than one, in this case, as there was only one MLB taken in the Top 5 in the past 20 years. Where I screwed up was changing to Top 3 from the Top 5 that Phil was speaking of.

Now who is the one being disingenuous?

[bdeg]

Originally Posted by Saccogoo

He's average the same amount of sacks and 20 less tackles per year than Tamba Hali, and people around here have no problem jumping all over Hali's ass for being a bust, especially when he was picked 16 slots lower than Adams.

adams has been going against lt's the whole time as their main threat. Tamba got almost all his sacks against RT's, with jared pressuring and drawing extra blocking.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by Saccogoo

Now who is the one being disingenuous?

Do you know what disingenous means? I'm not the one putting words in people's mouths like "regularity." I'm also not changing the parameters of the argument to suit my argument, as you did.

My typo made things harder on me. I didn't get an advantage in the argument with that typo.

Go back and read the thread. Phil references Top 5.

The points still stand.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by philfree

The people who have defended Curry have done so because they think he's a better prospect in this draft then the other prospects in this draft. It's all about this draft and the players in it and nothing more. Well unless you want to reach for positional value and then it becomes trying to prove you're right.


PhilFree

It's official.

You haven't read a single post of htismaqe's or mine, or you have the greatest reading comprehension issue known to man.

Either way, I'm done.

It's not really a debate when one person puts his fingers in his ears and ignores others points, then tries to claim he "refuted" said points.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by philfree

The people who have defended Curry have done so because they think he's a better prospect in this draft then the other prospects in this draft. It's all about this draft and the players in it and nothing more. Well unless you want to reach for positional value and then it becomes trying to prove you're right.


PhilFree

If you want to go just by THIS draft and ignore history, what is the drop-off between Curry and say, Rey Rey?

Compare that to the drop-off between Stafford/Sanchez and Josh Freeman.

There's far more value in Sanchez than Curry, no matter how you slice it.

[Saccopoo]

Originally Posted by Mecca

No offense or anything but Charley Casserly was a brutal GM.

He did get the bum rush for picking Super Mario instead of Young or Bush and he looks like he did the right thing. However, the guy did do the GM bit for a while, so he's been in the business of evaluating players and the like. Just trying to provide a bit of objective analysis in backing Curry as a legit pick at #3. I'd take Casserly's word over the mock draft meat heads, and even the mock meat heads have Curry high. Guy had a great combine, has great fundamentals, has a nose for the ball, fight through and sheds blocks very well, etc. It seems that everyone thinks he's a legit top ten type of player.

I'm just saying that people don't need to go ballistic if someone says that Curry would be a legit pick by the Chiefs at that spot.

Curry, Orakpo, Monroe, Smith(s), Crabtree, Oher, Maclin, Brown, Jackson, Wells would/could all be considered a legit pick by the Chiefs at that point.

And depending upon what the Chiefs do with Larry, people should start looking at Beanie Wells with a little more than just a casual interest at that three spot.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Saccogoo

Curry, Orakpo, Monroe, Smith(s), Crabtree, Oher, Maclin, Brown, Jackson, Wells would/could all be considered a legit pick by the Chiefs at that point.

Just understand that "legit" and "good" are two completely different things.

And Beanie Wells at #3? I want some of what you're smoking.

[Mecca]

Charlie Casserly also thought Troy Williamson was going to be a superstar lets fathom that.

[bdeg]

Originally Posted by Saccogoo

Perhaps the NFL decision makers feel that Curry is better than the others and justifies a top three pick? That he transcends what is generally considered a position of less importance, at least when drafting unproven college players.



In the past ten years, here are your top 3 rushers:

1998: Andre Wadsworth
1999: N/A
2000: Courtney Brown, Lavarr Arrington
2001: N/A
2002: Julius Peppers
2003: N/A
2004: N/A
2005: N/A
2006: Mario Williams
2007: N/A
2008: Chris Long

Whoops. Wait a minute. You said linebackers. Okay. So scratch Wadsworth, Brown, Peppers, Williams and Long from that list.

So in the past ten years, the NFL decision makers thought that only Lavarr Arrington was worth a top three NFL draft pick. I wonder if they feel that the rush backer position is a position of little importance considering that there has only been one outside linebacker taken in the top three in the past ten years?

I'm not sure how only Arrington translates into "quite a few" though...hmmmm.



Because the MLB must have the knowledge to quickly recognize the offensive sets and call adjustments to them quickly. They also have to possess excellent instincts as they are responsible for finding the ball on every play and stopping the play as quickly as possible. They have to be athletic enough to support both the run and the pass, and cover tight ends, receivers and backs. Their area of responsibility on the field is much greater than other positions.

A rush end has one simple task. Get the quarterback. If they do it but once a game, they are considered a great success. A defensive tackle, depending upon the scheme is basically required to tie up blockers to allow the more athletic players to make plays. It's not asking much for a big fat dude to stand in the middle of the field and waddle towards another big fat dude. However, a ILB is requried to do so much more. And that's why I consider it a position of high importance on the defensive side of the ball.

Rush backers were previously considered tweeners. If a DE who could rush was too small, he would drop down boards until a 3-4 team picked him up. These guys aren't going to drop as far with so many more 3-4 teams, the need for these guys has gone up. Their value has always been high, look at the contract Adalius Thomas signed.

That said, I don't advocate reaching for an olb if they really believe it's much of a reach.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by Saccogoo

He did get the bum rush for picking Super Mario instead of Young or Bush and he looks like he did the right thing. However, the guy did do the GM bit for a while, so he's been in the business of evaluating players and the like. Just trying to provide a bit of objective analysis in backing Curry as a legit pick at #3. I'd take Casserly's word over the mock draft meat heads, and even the mock meat heads have Curry high. Guy had a great combine, has great fundamentals, has a nose for the ball, fight through and sheds blocks very well, etc. It seems that everyone thinks he's a legit top ten type of player.

I'm just saying that people don't need to go ballistic if someone says that Curry would be a legit pick by the Chiefs at that spot.

Curry, Orakpo, Monroe, Smith(s), Crabtree, Oher, Maclin, Brown, Jackson, Wells would/could all be considered a legit pick by the Chiefs at that point.

And depending upon what the Chiefs do with Larry, people should start looking at Beanie Wells with a little more than just a casual interest at that three spot.

JFC.

I think I'm cashing in my chips after I finish my responsibilities with this mock.

I can't take this ****tarded hive mind that's spread across this place the last two months.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by bdeg

Rush backers were previously considered tweeners. If a DE who could rush was too small, he would drop down boards until a 3-4 team picked him up. These guys aren't going to drop as far with so many more 3-4 teams, the need for these guys has gone up. Their value has always been high, look at the contract Adalius Thomas signed.

This.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by Saccogoo

Let's see...we had the best, most complete DE in Jared Allen, but he really didn't seem to get us over the hump. Hell, our defense, even with him on the roster, was the laughing stock of the NFL. Derrick might have been the best rushing OLB in NFL history, but yet, how many playoff games did we win with him on the roster? How many Super Bowls? A defensive tackle? A big fat space eater that's meant to free up the ILB?

I'd like "The more important position on the defense" for $1000 Alex.

What is ILB? Yeah, I win football Jeopardy!!!

Wait....what? So having an all-pro ILB is going to win you a championship?

Let's take a look back at the Superbowl champs....and who played ILB for them....shall we.

2008 - Steelers - Larry Foote (4th round) and Lawrence Timmons (1st round)
2007 - Giants - Antonio Pierce (UDFA)
2006 - Colts - Gary Brackett (UDFA)
2005 - Patriots - Tedy Bruschi (3rd round) and Roman Phifer (2nd round)
2004 - Patriots - Tedy Bruschi (3rd round) and Roman Phifer (2nd round)
2003 - Buccaneers - Shelton Quarles (UDFA)
2002 - Patriots - Tedy Bruschi (3rd round)
2001 - Ravens - Ray Lewis (1st round)
2000 - Rams - London Fletcher (UDFA)
1999 - Broncos - Glenn Cadrez (6th round)
1998 - Broncos - Allen Aldridge (2nd round)

[Saccopoo]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Do you know what disingenous means? I'm not the one putting words in people's mouths like "regularity." I'm also not changing the parameters of the argument to suit my argument, as you did.

My typo made things harder on me. I didn't get an advantage in the argument with that typo.

Go back and read the thread. Phil references Top 5.

The points still stand.

You called me disingenuous for only posting ten years of OLB drafts, when I never saw mention of a required 20 year window. So that I wouldn't be considered "disingenuous," I posted the other ten years.

And I wasn't responding to Phil. I was responding to you. You said top three. Now you want top five.

I'm also not changing the parameters of the argument to suit my argument, as you did.

So, to answer your question, yes, I definitely know what "disingenuous" means. Question is, do you?