***Official 2021 STL Cardinals Thread***

[Marcellus]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

.
@Ben_Fred
asked Mo if tension between Shildt and Jeff Albert was the cause of the split and if Albert would return. Mo says Albert is under contract and he expects him to be back and that tension between the two was not the “sole reason” for the dismissal.

Tension between Shildt and Albert? First I have heard of that news.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

.
@Ben_Fred
asked Mo if tension between Shildt and Jeff Albert was the cause of the split and if Albert would return. Mo says Albert is under contract and he expects him to be back and that tension between the two was not the “sole reason” for the dismissal.

I have no idea why Albert is such a made man. I know they like his developmental philosophy for prospects in the system, but the man cannot teach big league players. It's a different skill set. Keep him on for the minors and bring in someone who can help the individual players with swing mechanics when they get in a rut if need be.

[Miles]

Woh. Didn’t see this one coming.

[gblowfish]

One thing I'll say about the St. Louis Cardinals.

They don't tolerate losing for very long.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by gblowfish

One thing I'll say about the St. Louis Cardinals.

They don't tolerate losing for very long.

Bill DeWitt says his goal is to win 87 games. Shildt has averaged a pro-rated 91/season in his time at manager.

They absolutely tolerate being slightly better than average so long as your a quiet little yes man when Mozeliak tells you that he's going to get get you Jon Lester and JA Happ to save your season.

Sounds like Shildt saw $60 million in completely unproductive roster chaff come off the payroll and was no longer willing to bite his tongue.

This is all about Mozeliak needing a puppet manager and DeWitt continuing to be snowed by this ****ing charlatan.

[Marcellus]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Bill DeWitt says his goal is to win 87 games. Shildt has averaged a pro-rated 91/season in his time at manager.

They absolutely tolerate being slightly better than average so long as your a quiet little yes man when Mozeliak tells you that he's going to get get you Jon Lester and JA Happ to save your season.

Sounds like Shildt saw $60 million in completely unproductive roster chaff come off the payroll and was no longer willing to bite his tongue.

This is all about Mozeliak needing a puppet manager and DeWitt continuing to be snowed by this ****ing charlatan.

Schildt is a terrible manager who doesn't know when to say no.

Reyes coming in there with the game on the line and bullpen literally full of guys who didn't have a 7 ERA since the Allstar break are all you need to know he is bad at his job.

[Rams Fan]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

Schildt is a terrible manager who doesn't know when to say no.

Reyes coming in there with the game on the line and bullpen literally full of guys who didn't have a 7 ERA since the Allstar break are all you need to know he is bad at his job.

Shildt literally was given dog shit to work in the BP. Reyes hadn’t allowed an inherited runner to score since like April or May. I wouldn’t have wanted Flaherty or Hudson pitching in that situation.

Shildt is a good manager. The team exceeded its Pythagorean by a decent amount.

Mozeliak is now a slightly above average baseball executive who should be criticized for needing the team to go on a 17 game run in September to make the WC in the first place due to his construction of the bullpen and inaction for the rotation.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

Schildt is a terrible manager who doesn't know when to say no.

Reyes coming in there with the game on the line and bullpen literally full of guys who didn't have a 7 ERA since the Allstar break are all you need to know he is bad at his job.

You can't run Flaherty or Hudson out there - they're starting pitchers and the Gallegos fingernail thing popped up on him. You can't ask guys used to starting to get hot that quickly - they're just not used to it.

Cabrera has been just as erratic as Reyes of late.

I'd have gone with Whitley, personally. And tried to get through the 9th while giving Flaherty time to get warm. But in the end, it probably didn't matter. They weren't hitting.

I don't see how anyone can say Shildt is a terrible manager after seeing how the defense turned around literally overnight when he took over and initiated new shifting, etc... The guy took the team to 90+ wins with a bunch of shit that nobody else wanted throwing the ball for him.

Mike Shildt is no worse than a very good manager. Cash is better, Kapler is probably better (though Kapler had his issues in Philly). Cora also seems to be quite good.

Who the **** else? Snitker? The guy Shildt ran circles around in 2019? Baker? A guy who's done less with more than any manager in MLB history? Sweet Jesus please don't say Maddon - that guys an overrated kook. Boone? Who can't manage a $225 million payroll?

There are a few guys who I'd put in the same tier with him. Probably Bob Melvin and maybe Scott Servais. Mike Shildt will have won a MOTY award and rec'd votes in all 4 seasons he led this team. Calling him a terribly manager just screams of ignorance of what goes on outside of this organization.

There aren't a half dozen guys in baseball I'd take over him.

This decision was stupid and petty.

[Rams Fan]

Originally Posted by gblowfish

One thing I'll say about the St. Louis Cardinals.

They don't tolerate losing for very long.

Matheny would’ve been fired after 2016 and LaRussa after 2007 if that was the case.

They don’t tolerate losing because they care about being just above average with a glimmer of hope to contend so there will be butts in the seats.

[DJ's left nut]

Shildt managed the hell out of this squad.

A paper thin roster full of cast-offs from other organizations, no discerinable bench talent, decaying players on shit contracts and octogenarian starting pitchers that Shildt managed to get damn nice productivity out of.

When everyone had written them off, he got them playing their best ball of the season. And yeah, I'd have gone Whitley over Reyes, but FFS, they were 0-11 w/ RISP. He can't hit for 'em. That game could've gone 4 more innings and we still lose.

Mike Shildt is a DAMN good major league manager. Meanwhile John Mozeliak has done a piss poor job for about 8 years now and he's ****ing bulletproof.

Shildt saved Mozeliak's job in 2018 and frankly he may have pulled his ass from the fire again this year. And his reward was getting fired by a guy who's nowhere near as good at building a team as Shildt is at running it.

I hope Mike Shannon was right and Bill DeWitt is looking to sell the team. That guy's as senile as Biden at this point. This is goddamn asinine.

[DJ's left nut]

A fanbase that pats itself on the back for giving standing ovations to pieces of shit like Brandon Moss, calls a manager that dragged a flawed ass team into the post-season 'terrible' and is constantly shitting on Edmonds in the booth while praising Brad Thompson deserves a mouth-breathing empty suit like Matheny back in the dugout.

Sure, why not. Matheny and Mozeliak are perfect for each other. And for the BFIB.

****ing bullshit organization man.

Yadier Molina 4-pack ticket bundles and the all new Edmundo Sosa victory blue shirseys go on sale in just a couple of months, fans! Get yours now!!!!

[Prison Bitch]

So the Arenado deal looks like it is 7/164 for The Loo, after the Rockies’ deduction. ZIPS projected him at 4.0 fWAR this year which he hit on the nose. So after Year 1 he returned 32 of the 164 owed.

Can they get the 132 remaining back from him? First, that’s the wrong question to ask since *every* FA deal (which this essentially is) won’t return full value. And you’re paying more upfront for less on the backend. Since Arenado agreed to defer some of his deal (how much and how it’s structured are unknown), that mitigates some of it from a TMV perspective.

Let’s therefore say we need to really just get to 115. Is that do-able? ZiPS preseason had him at 2022-25 as 4.3, 3.6, 2.9, 2.1. I assume the final two years he’s 1.5 and 1.0. That’s total war of 15.4. At 8.5M per War that’s a value of 130.


However ZiPS downgraded his next two seasons. 2022 dropped from 4.3 to 2.8....2023 from 3.6 to 2.3. If that’s how his base case, he’ll prob return about 80M of that 115


TLDR: next year will determine what kind of future value he has.

[DJ's left nut]

My point being they shouldn't have HAD to give up anything of value to take on his contract. Arenado with his contract in tow had a negative asset value. As I laid out - aggressively the Rockies were $75 million underwater and conservatively about $25 million. The fact that the Rockies landed right in the middle in what they sent over tells me I was balls on right in how I reviewed that.

Why should the Cardinals have had to give up significant prospect capital to take on an upside down asset? They shouldn't and they didn't. Oh, and Arenado had a full no-trade clause so he tied Colorado's hands as it was.

The Holliday move was damn was in 2009, man. No, he didn't sign Pujols, but not for lack of trying. Same thing with Heyward - he TRIED to screw both of those up but someone was willing to be dumber.

Berkman was a good signing. Beltran was a GREAT signing. Craig for Lackey was nice but it also cost us Joe Kelly who's been an excellent reliever. Rasmus was a terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE trade and nothing more than a salary dump. Edwin Jackson was traded that morning to the first team willing to take on Mark Teahen's deal, then flipped to us in the afternoon. So we traded Rasmus for a guy in Dotel that could've been had for a spring training invite a few months earlier and a lefthanded reliever. No, you don't have to give up a 23 yr old CFer who the season prior had a 3.5 win season and 2 seasons later had a 5 win season for that. You give up AA organizational filler for trades like that, not a former top 5 prospect in all of MLB who had played extremely well at a young age at the big league level.

But for the Furcal deal saving everyone involved in that things ass, the Rasmus trade is a complete debacle. Oh, and the Furcal deal was made necessary by dumping Brendan Ryan (4 win season that year) and signing that piece of shit Ryan Theriot to play SS in his place.

He has 3 moves on that list that he deserves absolutely unqualified praise for. Holliday, Berkman and Beltran. Neshek is just a nothing signing. Everyone has those if you throw enough shit at the wall and everything throws shit at the wall when they're building a bullpen. That doesn't move the needle.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

My point being they shouldn't have HAD to give up anything of value to take on his contract. Arenado with his contract in tow had a negative asset value. As I laid out - aggressively the Rockies were $75 million underwater and conservatively about $25 million. The fact that the Rockies landed right in the middle in what they sent over tells me I was balls on right in how I reviewed that.

Why should the Cardinals have had to give up significant prospect capital to take on an upside down asset? They shouldn't and they didn't. Oh, and Arenado had a full no-trade clause so he tied Colorado's hands as it was.

The Holliday move was damn was in 2009, man. No, he didn't sign Pujols, but not for lack of trying. Same thing with Heyward - he TRIED to screw both of those up but someone was willing to be dumber.

Berkman was a good signing. Beltran was a GREAT signing. Craig for Lackey was nice but it also cost us Joe Kelly who's been an excellent reliever. Rasmus was a terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE trade and nothing more than a salary dump. Edwin Jackson was traded that morning to the first team willing to take on Mark Teahen's deal, then flipped to us in the afternoon. So we traded Rasmus for a guy in Dotel that could've been had for a spring training invite a few months earlier and a lefthanded reliever. No, you don't have to give up a 23 yr old CFer who the season prior had a 3.5 win season and 2 seasons later had a 5 win season for that. You give up AA organizational filler for trades like that, not a former top 5 prospect in all of MLB who had played extremely well at a young age at the big league level.

But for the Furcal deal saving everyone involved in that things ass, the Rasmus trade is a complete debacle. Oh, and the Furcal deal was made necessary by dumping Brendan Ryan (4 win season that year) and signing that piece of shit Ryan Theriot to play SS in his place.

He has 3 moves on that list that he deserves absolutely unqualified praise for. Holliday, Berkman and Beltran. Neshek is just a nothing signing. Everyone has those if you throw enough shit at the wall and everything throws shit at the wall when they're building a bullpen. That doesn't move the needle.

the Rasmus deal was great because we don’t win the WS without that trade. I’d make that deal every time. Same with the Frank Clark deal. Last two years have sucked really bad but we don’t win the SB without Clark.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

the Rasmus deal was great because we don’t win the WS without that trade. I’d make that deal every time. Same with the Frank Clark deal. Last two years have sucked really bad but we don’t win the SB without Clark.

So the Mulder trade was a good one as well?

Jesus I hate this line of reasoning. It’s just lazy.