Illegal Immigration: What should we do?

[Mr. Kotter]

MODS: I'm interested in finding out what CP members think about this issue, and while I understand it's an issue ripe for political discussion.....I'd ask for it to remain in the Lounge for a couple of days, if at all possible, before moving it to its inevitable death in DC.

Fellow ChiefsPlanet posters: Can we try to have a reasonable discussion over this issue without it becoming too heated and denigrating into purely partisan demagoguery or racist insults? Please?

FWIW, I'm following the debate over immigration legislation somewhat closely, and I'm trying to figure out what the middle ground--if there is any--on the issue might be.

Thanks in advance for you opinions and posts.

Poll to follow, shortly....

[Donger]

Originally Posted by jspchief

1. Double is probably hyperbole.

2. That's why I say you have to seal the border before you do anything.

Okay.

I realize that, and I proposed a solution earlier. Probably too icky for most, however.

[vailpass]

Originally Posted by jspchief

You act like only the crooks are out there using illegals. I've worked on homes that have made the cover of national magazines that probably used about 70% illegal labor. Homes that win awards and sell for millions.

You think there are people willing to roof for $500 per week? You're wrong.

70% non-union? Yeah. Even if that is the case what does that prove?
Quit trying to act as though you have proof positive that housing costs would double if illegals went away.

Your interest begins and ends with your access to cheap labor to support your small business.

[BucEyedPea]

(1) Send 'em back.
(2) No amnesty no guest worker programs....but
(3) increase immigration quotas so they can come in legally BUT with the intention of becoming full contributing, full-paying citizens that assimilate into our culture.
(4) do not allow those who support reconquista of the southwest, who are subversives or drug smugglers
(5) after doing #1-4 put land mines on the border
(6) if this continues plan for an armed invasion of Mexico, conquer it, annex it and divide up into several states

END of STORY!!!!

[Saulbadguy]

Oh, I forgot the obvious solution to this problem.

Illegal Immigration: What should we do?

Leave out a bowl of anti-freeze.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by jspchief

You guys over-estimate the willingness of the unemployed American to work. There a large portion of people in this world tha tdon't want these jobs, regardless of what they pay. America breeds lazy bums. Youngs adults would rather make $7 per hour flipping burgers than $12 per hour working a construction site.

The notion that there is a host of people wanting these jobs is just wrong. No one wants to be a roofer or concrete worker. It's a shitty job, and to make it worthwhile the wage would probably have to double at least.

That may be your experience in Iowa, or even some other parts of the country: I just don't buy the idea.....that many Americans who work fast food, or entry level service jobs....would not take a better paying job.

Why don't they ALREADY? Well.....I don't know. I think, as you suggest, some of it is laziness. Maybe companies would have to pay more, but no where close to double....I think a couple of bucks might even do it. If the jobs were readily available, and companies forced to be agressive seeking people to fill the jobs.....if anything, we might have a problem filling minimum wage/fast food types jobs, if anything.

I'm sure there's some good research on a lot of these questions:

anyone got links they are already familiar with? Dan T? Amnorix?

[Donger]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

That may be your experience in Iowa, or even some other parts of the country: I just don't buy the idea.....that many Americans who work fast food, or entry level service jobs....would not take a better paying job.

Why don't they ALREADY?

Because the illegals have deflated the wage base.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by Donger

Because the illegals have deflated the wage base.

I still find it hard to believe that many people would rather work for $7-8 an hour at McDonald's, than for a Construction company or meat-packing plant for $11-12 an hour. We are talking about a 30-40% difference in wages.....

I understand the conditions may be less comfortable....but sheesh! Growth potential and standard of living should outweigh being "comfortable" and lazy, shouldn't it? Regardless, raising those wages to $13-15 an hour may be something we just need to do, if we want to address the problem. Otherwise, we should just shut up about it, I guess?

Anyone with insights about that?

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by vailpass

70% non-union? Yeah. Even if that is the case what does that prove?
Quit trying to act as though you have proof positive that housing costs would double if illegals went away.

Your interest begins and ends with your access to cheap labor to support your small business.

Unions are almost non existant in residential housing, at least in the midwest.

And yes, my interest does have to do with keeping my business alive. Am I supposed to feel bad about that? When the median wage of the roofer in Des Moines goes up by 40-60%, I'm not going to cut into my profit margin, I'm going to raise my prices. As will every other contractor that worked on that house. That cost will be passed on to the consumer. I already said double was hyperbolic, but there will be significant increases.

You think I'm getting rich off this? Most construction business owners make a very modest living. It's not a matter of lining your pockets with the extra money that you make off illegals. It's about whether you break even, or make any money at all. We can't raise our prices everytime gas goes up 50 cents per gallon, or insurance rates double without making a single claim. Pay increases in the construction industry are stagnant compared to other industries. We don't get a 5% raise every year, because the cost of a new home doesn't go up 10-15k every year.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

I still find it hard to believe that many people would rather work for $7-8 an hour at McDonald's, than for a Construction company or meat-packing plant for $11-12 an hour. We are talking about a 30-40% difference in wages.....

I understand the conditions may be less comfortable....but sheesh! Growth potential and standard of living should outweigh being "comfortable" and lazy, shouldn't it? Regardless, raising those wages to $13-15 an hour may be something we just need to do, if we want to address the problem. Otherwise, we should just shut up about it, I guess?

Anyone with insights about that?

I'm living it. I had Americans making 30k a year working for me, that left for low education office jobs making 22k per year.

It's not just about money. It's hard fucking work. And our high schools are villifying the construction industry to the point that young adults don't consider these jobs as viable careers. 50 years ago, plumber or carpenter was an honest living. Now schools use those jobs as a threatened fate if you don't go to college.

[Chief Faithful]

Excerpt from an article in today's Washington Times:

Provisions in past bills that have given amnesty to illegal aliens have been used by at least five terrorists to stay in the U.S. while planning or committing deadly attacks, a fact that critics say proves their contention that the "path to earned citizenship" in immigration bills now before the Senate constitutes a security risk.

This is why I am strongly in favor of back ground checks as well as fines for companies that hire un-documented aliens.

[Kclee]

Originally Posted by jspchief

50 years ago, plumber or carpenter was an honest living.

Jesus was a carpenter.


(I'll leave it up to you to decide if I meant the son of God, or the mexican.)

[Chief Faithful]

Theodore Roosevelt was a pretty smart leader and he said:

Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907.
"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

[Rain Man]

Originally Posted by Kclee

Jesus was a carpenter.


(I'll leave it up to you to decide if I meant the son of God, or the mexican.)

Not a good one, apparently. Did you see those scars on his hands and feet from the nail gun?

[|Zach|]

Originally Posted by jspchief

It's not just about money. It's hard fucking work. And our high schools are villifying the construction industry to the point that young adults don't consider these jobs as viable careers. 50 years ago, plumber or carpenter was an honest living. Now schools use those jobs as a threatened fate if you don't go to college.

Eh, thats a pretty good point.

[Inspector]

Originally Posted by Donger

Sorry, but that's rather simplistic.

Even in industries with high concentrations of illegal workers -- such as construction, restaurants and some parts of agriculture -- the impact isn't as great as many people think. If there weren't illegal immigrants working in construction in places like Chicago and Miami, then demand for legal workers would go up, which would mean wages would rise. But very quickly, legal workers from other parts of the country would move to those cities, and wages would go back down. The net impact on wages would be relatively modest.

That's probably the best summation I've seen.

Dude...I can't rep you twice in a row.

This explanantion makes the most sense to me.