Do you prefer the "old"/Vermeil style or the "new"/Herm style of play?

[FloridaMan88]

Vermeil-era vs Herm-era (all 2 games of it) by the numbers from today's KC Star:


New vs. Old: Comparing two coaches' styles
The Kansas City Star
It’s been only two games, but here’s how the Chiefs have fared in Herm Edwards’ brief tenure as coach (top) compared with five seasons under Dick Vermeil.


Edwards Category Vermeil
8.0 Points for 27.0
16.0 Points against 22.9
129.0 Rush offense 137.3
130.5 Rush defense 124.4
153.5 Pass offense 243.6
146.5 Pass defense 232.4

[B_Ambuehl]

Herm is just an automaton. There are at least 5 or 6 other coaches in the NFL who coach things the same way he does. Play a 4-3, run a cover 2, run the football...blah blah blah....With that sort've approach you're only gonna be as good as what your draft picks turn out to be because everybody else is doing the exact same thing, running the exact same schemes, and there's only so much money to go around to spend on players....and this team can't draft worth a damn so they're always gonna be behind the 8-ball doing the same thing everybody else does.

IMO a really good coach gives you an advantage due to his schemes....the scheme by itself elevates the level of talent going into it.

Mike Shanahan and his zone blocking offense
Dick Lebeau and his zone blitzing 3-4
The original 49ers west coast offense
Dick Vermeil's greatest show on turf
The original Tampa 2


Those are examples of schemes that outproduce their level of talent.

Vermeil's scheme gave this team an unfair advantage just like it did with the Rams. Martz had the same problem with the defense when he took over and he was smart enough to bring in Lovie Smith back when that defense wasn't being run by everyone in the NFL...and it was effective....they went to another superbowl. That's all that Vermeil needed to do really but someone ****ed up when they chose Gun instead of someone that would bring in a defense that would limit big plays.

[Deberg_1990]

I prefer a truly balanced team. I could care less what the offensive style is as long as we move the ball well. Same with the defense. As long as they can make stops im happy. The last time we had a truly balanced team was 1997.

[Chiefnj]

I prefer Vermeil's "style". I don't think Vermeil's style was to assemble an offense to carry the defense. When he won the Super Bowl with the Rams he had a top 10 offense and defense. I think Vermeil wanted a defense like he had in St. Louis. He and his "style" failed in KC because he surrounded himself with poor DC's and poor assistant coaches and didn't fire those who weren't getting the job done.

I think Herm's "style" is a play not to lose style. I think Herm is complacent with that type of game.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Chiefnj

The truth of the situation is that Denver is historically a very good home team. They beat Marty, Vermeil and dozens of coaches regularly. What was the point spread last year when KC went to Denver? Was it double digits? If it was "BECAUSE OF VERMEIL" as you stated, the spread should have been the same.

Historical trends in a series weigh HEAVILY on betting lines. That's why Iowa has been an underdog ONE TIME in the last 10 years versus Iowa State, despite having lost 6 of 9.

Vermeil happened to be our coach during the past 5 years, in which we laid egg after egg at Denver. You can pretend that it's irrelevant all you want. It's not.

[dirk digler]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

We were a double-digit underdog last weekend BECAUSE OF VERMEIL.

Wrong

Here is the betting line between the 2 teams for the last 5 years. I guess all the ass kickings we get in Denver don't reflect in the lines.

12/04/2005 Sun DEN 27 KC 31 G 1/46

09/26/2005 Mon KC 10 DEN 30 G -3/47½

12/19/2004 Sun DEN 17 KC 45 G 3/51½

09/12/2004 Sun KC 24 DEN 34 G -3/47½

12/07/2003 Sun KC 27 DEN 45 G -3/46½

10/05/2003 Sun DEN 23 KC 24 G -3½/47

12/15/2002 Sun KC 24 DEN 31 G -3½/47½

10/20/2002 Sun DEN 37 KC 34 G 3/50½

12/16/2001 Sun DEN 23 KC 26 G -1/38

10/07/2001 Sun KC 6 DEN 20 G -10/47½

[Deberg_1990]

Originally Posted by Chiefnj

I prefer Vermeil's "style". I don't think Vermeil's style was to assemble an offense to carry the defense. When he won the Super Bowl with the Rams he had a top 10 offense and defense. I think Vermeil wanted a defense like he had in St. Louis. He and his "style" failed in KC because he surrounded himself with poor DC's and poor assistant coaches and didn't fire those who weren't getting the job done.

I think Herm's "style" is a play not to lose style. I think Herm is complacent with that type of game.

DV also had alot more talent overall to work with in STL than in KC. YOu have to remember that prior to 1999, the Rams were awful almost every season from 91-98. They were always picking in the top 10.


The Chiefs on the other hand have never been truly awful in the CP era. He always has done "just enough" to get by and keep the fanbase excited, but not enough to get over the hump.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by B_Ambuehl

Vermeil's scheme gave this team an unfair advantage just like it did with the Rams. Martz had the same problem with the defense when he took over and he was smart enough to bring in Lovie Smith back when that defense wasn't being run by everyone in the NFL...and it was effective....they went to another superbowl. That's all that Vermeil needed to do really but someone ****ed up when they chose Gun instead of someone that would bring in a defense that would limit big plays.

Let me guess.

"Someone" is Carl Peterson, right?

How soon we forget that if Peterson hadn't FORCED Vermeil's hand and brought in Gunther, Dickie would have retained Greg Robinson...

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by dirk digler

formatting removed

And where did those lines come from?

Every game, home and away, was essentially even money? I don't believe that.

[dirk digler]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

And where did those lines come from?

Every game, home and away, was essentially even money? I don't believe that.

Google ..

http://www.bodog.com/betting-matchup...0060917/KC-DEN

For what it is worth I don't gamble so I don't know if this is a good site or not.

[Halfcan]

Herm is a dumbazz.

[Logical]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

I voted neither, but I have to add one caveat:

Anybody that voted for Vermeil is ignoring the obvious.

IT DID NOT WORK.

Period, end of story.

Whether or not Herm's "style" succeeds here is still undecided. No matter how you feel on the CHANCE that it will succeed, the simple fact is that we don't have sufficient data to make a determination.

We have 5 years of data on Vermeil. 5 years of failure.

He asked which we preferred, not which was better. I prefer the offensive style of Vermiel to the all defense no offense style of Herm. The games were a lot more fun to watch.

[Baby Lee]

Originally Posted by Logical

He asked which we preferred, not which was better. I prefer the offensive style of Vermiel to the all defense no offense style of Herm. The games were a lot more fun to watch.

Especially when one revels in organizational failure.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Baby Lee

Especially when one revels in organizational failure.

[Hammock Parties]

We are not reigning in the offense. As soon as Green gets back, we'll be back to normal with how our offense is run. And I bet we're more agressive against the 49ers at home.

[Archie Bunker]

Herm wants to be dominant on both sides of the ball. DV seemed to only care about his offense and it got the Chiefs no where. Anyone who thinks DV had any sort of success in his 5 yrs needs to look at the facts and not the gaudy offensive numbers that mean nothing. No playoff wins, 1 trip in 5 years, and a complete waste of the the best offense in the NFL.

If you are going to blame Herm for the offense's decline and ingore the fact that having 2 new tackles and a 3rd string QB playing has had more to do with the decline than anything Herm has done; then you also have to blame DV for the terrible defenses he fielded. Those defenses turned the Chiefs into a laughingstock and were historically bad.

DV was a failure plain and simple. Herm still has a chance at success and his formula is far more successful. A top defense and a punishing offense. It works year after year for various teams and coaches.