All I really desire is freedom FROM religion. - No offense has been intended

[Logical]

I think some here misunderstand my intent as being a hater of people who are believers. If you have been around a long time you would have seen me defend many different religious types from the bigotry of so called Christians.

I personally believe there is a creator(s) but I also suffer from the illogical nature of the idea where did they come from?

So being as we are approaching a religious season for most religions I select this time to apologize for any hurt I may have caused any of the posters on this BB who mean well.

This is a thread not intended to stir the shit so hopefully it can stay in the Lounge.

[BIG_DADDY]

Originally Posted by Logical

Bah Humbug

[KC-TBB]

Wow, don't know quite what to say here...on one hand it is quite a personel thing (religion) but as a Christian you are asked to tell others about the good news...it is a shame that it is done poorly to where it is a burden or pain to some and they get turned off. I guess I can just say that I don't want to see anyone burn in Hell (whatever that is) and want everyone to be in Heaven (whatever that is)...but most likely we are destined to be what we are. Sometimes events happen that will lead you one way or the other, but typically someone 'beating on your door and berating you about it' wouldnt have worked on me...it was a path that I landed upon myself. But I for sure beleive there is good in the world (i have witnessed it) and bad (i have witnessed it) and have tried both. I have alot more peace of mind in my present lifestyle of being a Christian then I did before that decision was made. I now do not worry about the 'philosphy' of life...if I am wrong...oh well, but if I went the other way and missed out on eternal bless because I was as stubborn as most...that would be extremely misfortunate.

Hope this does not offend anyone...just want to give my viewpoint on the fact that you can be a "Christian" without being 'one of those people'.

Merry Christmas everyone!

[ChiefFripp]

Originally Posted by HonestChieffan

Read your post and still have no idea why you made it, why I should care, or why you feel a need to bring this up.

If those who do know Christ and have accepted him were to make posts like this pronouncing our beliefs, people like you would strongly and loudly object.

Why would he do that?

[Sully]

A few people here know (because I've bragged about it numerous times) that my fiance (2.5 weeks to go!!!) is a minister. An intereting thing happened to her a couple of weeks ago.

Her church is in a neighborhood, not on a busy street at all. The church has a huge softball field, a park, a basketball court, a track, and tons of land. At times some of the kids in the neighborhood come and play football or play on the swings, or whatever, but very few in the neighborhood ever come to church, and she's never been able to figure out why. In an effort to bring the neighborhood together, not to proselytize, she has begun having neighborhood watch meeting in her church, to help build a feeling of community. At the first meeting, a hundred people showed up. She didn't say one word to any of them about coming to church, etc, just let the police have the floor and shook some hands. At one point in the evening, she found out that a minister 2 or 3 before she took over was always going door to door trying to goad folks into coming to church, and they ha dalways been afraid that it was what the church was about. The fiance assured them she didn't work that way, and explained to them her idea of ministry (compassion, love, acceptance, etc). Now, since then, more people from the neighborhood have been sprinkled in on Sundays.

Intersting thing I took from that is that more than door to door stuff, just having an open door with no pressure will bring more into the fold than paiing out pamphlets and putting people on the spot in their doorway.

[InChiefsHeaven]

Originally Posted by frazod

Well, I'm glad you don't know where my porch is.

I have no problem with religion at a fundamental level - instilling base values and character (if it's used that way, as opposed to, say, teaching children it's okay to strap on a bomb and blow children of the wrong god up). But I thoroughly believe that the more organized religion is, the worse it gets. Good luck naming an organization that has caused more suffering and reeruned the advancement of our species more than the Catholic Church. I'd really like that 1,000 or so years back. Oh well. No star trekking for me, I guess. Darn.

...or an organization that has done more to advance humanity in the realm of charity and faith and morals. The Church herself and the religion itself did not and does not do bad. Its the morons who have had power in the Church from time to time. Kinda sick of hearing about the big bad Catholic church, but I'm getting used to it too. I wish people could be a little more genuine and look at both sides of things.

I see religion (ALL OF THEM) for what it is - a tool for good or evil. It can be used to instill sound values or bend gullable fools to the will of the charismatic. Right or wrong, for better or worse, I have my own views on God, Jesus, heaven and hell, and I really don't care to hear anybody else's at this point.

Fair enough.

As for the idea of all non-Christians burning in hell because they haven't been saved, well, sorry, I just don't buy into that. What of the untold millions (billions?) of people who have lived and died since Christ's time who were simply never exposed to Christianity? I am supposed to believe that they all now roast in hell because of geography or upbringing, regardless of how they lived their many lives?

Well, the Catholic Church does not teach this, so I can't speak to what you mean by that.

[patteeu]

I don't think you hate people who are religious as much as you love pissing them off by putting their religious beliefs down and ridiculing them for having faith in such things.

[DaFace]

Originally Posted by frazod

Sounds like a great place for my religion=masturbation theory.

Religion is like masturbation. If it makes you happy, by all means, partake. But keep it to yourself, and spare me the details. And try not to get any on me.

Awesome. I'll have to remember that.

[Chieficus]

Originally Posted by frazod

Well, I'm glad you don't know where my porch is.

I'm guessing somewhere in Naperville...

Originally Posted by frazod

I have no problem with religion at a fundamental level - instilling base values and character (if it's used that way, as opposed to, say, teaching children it's okay to strap on a bomb and blow children of the wrong god up). But I thoroughly believe that the more organized religion is, the worse it gets. Good luck naming an organization that has caused more suffering and reeruned the advancement of our species more than the Catholic Church. I'd really like that 1,000 or so years back. Oh well. No star trekking for me, I guess. Darn.

I see religion (ALL OF THEM) for what it is - a tool for good or evil. It can be used to instill sound values or bend gullable fools to the will of the charismatic. Right or wrong, for better or worse, I have my own views on God, Jesus, heaven and hell, and I really don't care to hear anybody else's at this point.

Being a Calvinist, I'm also a very "Reformer-minded" protestant (heck, even "worse" I'm a Baptist), so I'm not very big on the Catholic Church as a whole either, though I do have some Catholic friends... That aside, I agree that religion has been used to do great harm, but it has also been used to do great good...one recent example ties in with the Southern Baptist, of which I am a part (in some eyes, I think I just keep digging a bigger hole...)--the convention is the 3rd largest disaster relief organization in the US and mobilizes to provide food, shelter, and aid when events like the tsunami and hurricanes happen... this is something that is difficult to do when you don't have organization...

Originally Posted by frazod

As for the idea of all non-Christians burning in hell because they haven't been saved, well, sorry, I just don't buy into that. What of the untold millions (billions?) of people who have lived and died since Christ's time who were simply never exposed to Christianity? I am supposed to believe that they all now roast in hell because of geography or upbringing, regardless of how they lived their many lives? Think about it - that's simply preposterous. We are what we're programmed to be by our parents and our communities; it's always been that way. And good and evil certainly transend any human notions of religion.

I gave a simple view of what I believe in that regards in the short "calvinist" post to another user... I'll just leave it at that...

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by KCChiefsMan

I just don't like 90% of church people, at least the ones I've encountered. they are self-centered, judgemental and very inconsiderate people.........for every 1,000 "church people" that I've encountered, 900 of them are terrible/stupid/a$$hole people.

That's funny.

I would say you just described 90% non-church people I've ever met.....to a "T."

[InChiefsHeaven]

Originally Posted by Sully

A few people here know (because I've bragged about it numerous times) that my fiance (2.5 weeks to go!!!) is a minister. An intereting thing happened to her a couple of weeks ago.

Her church is in a neighborhood, not on a busy street at all. The church has a huge softball field, a park, a basketball court, a track, and tons of land. At times some of the kids in the neighborhood come and play football or play on the swings, or whatever, but very few in the neighborhood ever come to church, and she's never been able to figure out why. In an effort to bring the neighborhood together, not to proselytize, she has begun having neighborhood watch meeting in her church, to help build a feeling of community. At the first meeting, a hundred people showed up. She didn't say one word to any of them about coming to church, etc, just let the police have the floor and shook some hands. At one point in the evening, she found out that a minister 2 or 3 before she took over was always going door to door trying to goad folks into coming to church, and they ha dalways been afraid that it was what the church was about. The fiance assured them she didn't work that way, and explained to them her idea of ministry (compassion, love, acceptance, etc). Now, since then, more people from the neighborhood have been sprinkled in on Sundays.

Intersting thing I took from that is that more than door to door stuff, just having an open door with no pressure will bring more into the fold than paiing out pamphlets and putting people on the spot in their doorway.

Agreed. One example I have is I went to an Alice Cooper concert here in Omaha back in like 1986. There were a ton of people walking around handing out pamphlets to everyone. We got there late, after the crowd had pretty much all entered the arena. The sidewalks were strewn with these pamphlets. It was a very telling scene. It really made their efforts look like what they were, a waste of time, energy paper and money. There are more effective ways to minister to people. Sounds like your fiance (congrats by the way) has the right idea.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by jidar

and that, is precisely why so many people complain.

People who don't have the gonads, to simply and politely say "thanks, but no thanks."

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

People who don't have the gonads, to simply and politely say "thanks, but no thanks."

Why did the government create a "do not call" list?

Seems to me that not wanting to be pestered is pretty universal. Some people just don't get it when they are the ones doing the pestering.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by jspchief

Yea, and maybe if my barking dog wakes my napping daughter again I'll just let him out to imbed the fear of god deeply into you, and jesus can sew your ass up at the pearly gates.

Your statement shows a clear disregard for my peace, time, and privacy. That's precisely why I harbor ill will towards you people.

How about a "no solicitation" notice on your door?

Are you equally crabby when salesman, girl scouts, a census worker, or a roofer.....come to your door?

[Chieficus]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

How about a "no solicitation" notice on your door?

Are you equally crabby when salesman, girl scouts, a census worker, or a roofer.....come to your door?

How could anyone be crabby at a girl scout... all they do is sale overpriced, fattening cookies that break even the strongest man's will power when it comes to saying no...

[ZepSinger]

Originally Posted by Sully

Intersting thing I took from that is that more than door to door stuff, just having an open door with no pressure will bring more into the fold than paiing out pamphlets and putting people on the spot in their doorway.

Yup. My Purpose-Driven church does not go door to door- at all. No pressure- at all. They tell visitors not to feel obligated to give. They don't even pass an offering basket. There's boxes on the way out if you choose to give as a church member.

In 1999 there were 500 members. Now there are over 5,000, and they're spinning off satellite churches with the same idealogy.

Z