Building a defense in the modern NFL

[Chris Meck]

So, I've been thinking about this all season, and especially after watching Monday's game have some thoughts.

Something Reid said a few weeks back has been on my mind-he said that he thought the future of pass rushing was on the inside, as it's a shorter distance to the QB. Teams are getting the ball out quicker and quicker these days to neutralize that outside pass rush. See Aaron Donald.

1. Corners aren't allowed to play physical anymore. So top end speed, discipline and ball skills are really the only things that matter.

2. Outside pass rushers and CB's are generally the highest paid defenders at the current moment.

3. Interior linemen are, with a few exceptions, undervalued.

4. Safeties have become undervalued, as teams refuse to spend the top dollar on them (other than us with Berry) and instead put that money into CB's. We're speaking relatively here.

I think going forward, I would concentrate on defensive linemen as pass rushers first in the draft and free agency. I would tag Ford next year and let Houston walk after '19. I would sink dollars and high picks into the interior 3 move away from overpaying edge rushers.

I would absolutely sign quality veteran safeties, as to me, they're MORE valuable than corners if this is how the NFL wants to play.

I think every corner gets torched anymore and so this position is no longer worth the premium contract. There's not a lot of difference anymore between a mediocre corner and a great one under these rules. But a smart safety that diagnoses the play and is in the right place is golden. More so than before.

just my thoughts.

[Chiefaholic]

Originally Posted by Randallflagg

I agree. Absolutely. Unfortunately in this new "era" of Arena League - you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Run a 3-4 and you get very little push up front, giving the opposing QB more time to look downfield.

Run a 4-3 and you get more push up front, but if you miss - you lose.....


Me? I'm a believer in the 4-3. But again - if you don't have a good rushing Down Lineman who can shoot the gap and 2 good edge rushers, well.....it can end fairly badly.

Neil Smith, Derrick Thomas and Dan Saleaumua. Need I say more?

Joe Phillips

[Buehler445]

So my perspective is you need to be able to do all things competently. Not one thing great.

The Patriots are a good example. They’re going to identify what they think makes your offense go and sell out to stop it. Whether that’s the power run game, short pass game, deep balls running QBs whatever.

So many years we think we have something but we come up against some **** all team that does one thing over and over and just obliterates our ass because we are too dumb to stop it. If you keep 12 teams under 200 yards that’s fine. But if you can’t stop the other 4 from wrecking your shit at any one thing you’re done.

That’s a situation we’ve been in far too often.

[Halfcan]

We need faster LB's- they can't cover RB's or TE's.

Our Safties can't tackle or cover CB's.

[jaa1025]

Pass rushers, coverage LB's and ball hawking, rangy DBs. Gone are the run stuffer lineman and linebackers. Gone are the hard hitting in the box SS. It's about creating turnovers and rushing the passer.

I'd like to say there will be a team that bucks the trend and goes old school since no defense will be able to stop a power running game but with colleges not developing big time offensive lineman like they used to with all the passing and teams making their best prospects go Dline, then I see this happening.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Check it out Chris Meck: In a 43...playing in Nickel....you still have the same D-line you'd have while playing "base" 43. That's NOT the case in a 34.

That's the whole point. You are utilizing guys to play all 3 downs instead of "run down guys" (your 5-techs) and "pass down guys". I understand that everyone spends more time in passing formations than not. Clearly. That's the whole reason for the argument to switch to a 43.

What happens when a 34 base defense switches to nickel? The NT comes out, right? And now you're pass rushing with two larger OLB/DE types, and two guys who are generally lane cloggers. And your LB's, what are they in a base 34? Bigger guys right? So now you have LB's in coverage who aren't generally great in coverage. Your Reggie Ragland types.

Just because you can run multiple fronts does not mean you're putting the BEST guys out there to run said fronts.

Scheme dictates personnel. In a base 43 we rid ourselves of a NT. We rid ourselves of guys that are specifically run stuffers. You roll with your "base" dline even on passing downs, whether it's base or nickel. You get your $$$ out of said D-line instead of having guys come off the field on 3rd down.

You also have LB's who can run now, which is more optimum for Today's NFL. Who do you want in coverage, DoD or Tamba Hali?

Scheme dictates personnel. Personnel will dictate matchups, right?

Switching to a 43 means we no longer have to invest in 5-techs and NT's (big body guys with limited rush ability).

Your theory on today's NFL defense is NOT wrong. But the fundamental, core part of Today's NFL defense requires a switch to the 43 so that you can maximize your theory with players who are best able to carry it out.

Wanna run a 43 with 34 personnel? Sure. But it's not OPTIMAL. They are NOT interchangeable, because the personnel required to run them is different.

We're lucky to have a guy like Chris Jones or Allen Bailey who can in fact do both. Which makes a scheme switch even easier for a team like the Chiefs.

I understand. I'm really not even arguing with you- I'm not anti-4-3. Our base defense is more a 4-2-5 than anything, just like everyone else in the league. I just view it as a different personnel grouping, one of many, and one that will be used less than others. But we're in agreement about the type of interior lineman that we should be looking at in the draft and FA. So, yes, the four man line should be the main idea that we should be building towards with all four being pass rush threats.

to other posters-no, I don't want to keep both fatties and passrushers. I want to move away from the fatties for the most part and draft and sign active pass rush players to play inside, at defensive tackle positions. A nickel set is more the base defense than anything else these days, but yes, a four man line helps cover for smaller, faster linebackers. I also think that edge rushers should no longer be considered the premium defensive position, and interior rushers instead should be. An Aaron Donald has a bigger impact on the game than a Dee Ford or a Justin Houston. Good players, nice to have, but not the same.

[ROYC75]

Originally Posted by The Pest

Run a 4-3. You need to be able to pressure consistently with your four down linemen. You'll also need LBs that can cover well and stop the run. Man corners that have speed and ball skills. Rangy safeties that can take away the TE and also play the deep zones.

You hit on it,

DL's with power and speed

LB's with speed

DB's with speed

Safeties with speed

It's the way to go, speed up your defense to keep up or else fall behind!

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

I understand. I'm really not even arguing with you- I'm not anti-4-3. Our base defense is more a 4-2-5 than anything, just like everyone else in the league. I just view it as a different personnel grouping, one of many, and one that will be used less than others. But we're in agreement about the type of interior lineman that we should be looking at in the draft and FA. So, yes, the four man line should be the main idea that we should be building towards with all four being pass rush threats.

to other posters-no, I don't want to keep both fatties and passrushers. I want to move away from the fatties for the most part and draft and sign active pass rush players to play inside, at defensive tackle positions. A nickel set is more the base defense than anything else these days, but yes, a four man line helps cover for smaller, faster linebackers. I also think that edge rushers should no longer be considered the premium defensive position, and interior rushers instead should be. An Aaron Donald has a bigger impact on the game than a Dee Ford or a Justin Houston. Good players, nice to have, but not the same.

What are your thoughts on fanginos scheme? Hes basically running an under scheme out of a 3-4 alignment. It's one defense that's actually really working right now.

[oldman]

OK, Chris, you've convinced me. The bottom line is we want 2 guys applying pressure inside and guys that can rush or seal from the edge. I think your point about a 4-2-5 is well taken when 1 of your 5 is a hybrid S/ILB to cover the back or react to the run. With our current crop of young players such as Speaks, O'Daniel, and perhaps KPass, your scheme would better suit their talents and still allow for a pure edge rusher you could move side to side. I remember that we'd do that with DT and Smith on occasion. Speed and hands become the weapons at the CB spot and you could even convert bad hands WRs to that pretty easily. The key are the safeties and the ability to both cover and tackle. The only problem with that is the demand may outstrip the supply.
BTW, kudos for starting this discussion. I've enjoyed reading.

[Renegade]

So this brings up an interesting thought. With the NFL geared towards offense, what will it take for a current or future defensive player to get selected to HOF? Will the HOF become lopsided ie leaning towards offense instead of defense?

If they continue at current pace would D. Donaldson, K. Mack, JJ Watt be considered HOF material?

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

So my perspective is you need to be able to do all things competently. Not one thing great.

The Patriots are a good example. They’re going to identify what they think makes your offense go and sell out to stop it. Whether that’s the power run game, short pass game, deep balls running QBs whatever.

So many years we think we have something but we come up against some **** all team that does one thing over and over and just obliterates our ass because we are too dumb to stop it. If you keep 12 teams under 200 yards that’s fine. But if you can’t stop the other 4 from wrecking your shit at any one thing you’re done.


That’s a situation we’ve been in far too often.

yes, BUT-with NO, the Rams, and the Chiefs you can't just take away ONE thing and win. We contained Gurley fairly well Monday night, and he's usually what makes that offense go.

My overall point was that for decades, since Lawrence Taylor and Derrick Thomas the edge rusher has been the premium defensive player, along with the shutdown corner. Modern NFL offenses (and the new rules) have conspired to minimize the effectiveness of those positions. Taking Reid's quote to heart I think I'm coming to the conclusion that the interior line and collapsing the pocket from the INSIDE to combat the quick pass is now the only real way to disrupt the pocket QB. Edge rushers like Ford and Houston are nice pieces to have, but are less of a factor than an inside rusher because it takes longer for them to get to the QB and unless they just flat beat the OT the pocket holds together long enough for receivers to clear coverage since you can't touch anyone without a flag.

So what you really need now is smart, disciplined, elite Safety play to minimize gains, tackle well, and take good angles to the ball along with a strong INTERIOR pass rush to force quick throws from a pocket that is collapsing in the QB's face. I just thought it's interesting that the NFL has been an "outside in" defensive trend with CB's and edge rushers dictating the game and now it appears that the opposite is what you should build your defense on.

We have a couple of good edge rushers and they're still good players, but over the next couple of seasons I'd like to see emphasis on acquiring DT's that are a handful as pass rushers, a pair of stud safeties ala Collins, AND Thomas (as I doubt Berry will ever play a full season again even if he does return). Could be that Kpass and Speaks fit as DE's on a four man line; and Houston is stout enough against the run to play DE but Ford doesn't really have a position in a 4-3. He'll be an awful expensive situational pass rusher.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by jaa1025

Pass rushers, coverage LB's and ball hawking, rangy DBs. Gone are the run stuffer lineman and linebackers. Gone are the hard hitting in the box SS. It's about creating turnovers and rushing the passer.

I'd like to say there will be a team that bucks the trend and goes old school since no defense will be able to stop a power running game but with colleges not developing big time offensive lineman like they used to with all the passing and teams making their best prospects go Dline, then I see this happening.

exactly. and more than just 'pass rushers' INTERIOR pass rushers.

[Hydrae]

I think we are well set for this. Andy and Brett have been heading this direction already and it shows. Ragland would be better as a thumper in the middle (I hope at least, not sure he is smart enough to make the defensive calls). But the main thing is, have you noticed that at least our top 3 CBs are all slot corners? Able to cover close for a short period of time by which time you hope that interior rush is getting home. We just need the over the top safeties to cover the deep routes (Berry just might be helpful here ).

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

Houston is stout enough against the run to play DE but Ford doesn't really have a position in a 4-3. He'll be an awful expensive situational pass rusher.

Which brings up another point, the cash it would take to retain Ford both next year and after. If we go to more of an inside out defense, do we really need a pure speed pass rusher? Could we use his money in other places?

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Renegade

So this brings up an interesting thought. With the NFL geared towards offense, what will it take for a current or future defensive player to get selected to HOF? Will the HOF become lopsided ie leaning towards offense instead of defense?

If they continue at current pace would D. Donaldson, K. Mack, JJ Watt be considered HOF material?

Good point. If you look at pure stats, it's going to be hard to measure the effectiveness of some positions. Can you measure a speed and hands guys against someone like Emmitt Thomas, master of the bump and run? But to answer your 2nd question, yes, those guys are game changers.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by oldman

Which brings up another point, the cash it would take to retain Ford both next year and after. If we go to more of an inside out defense, do we really need a pure speed pass rusher? Could we use his money in other places?

Man...he's a real good pass rusher...but if you could sign a Geno Atkins or similar player in there I think it'd make more of a difference. I'm not sure what the cap situation would look like, but at least ONE Earl Thomas/Landon Collins type and a Geno Atkins would make that defense look a LOT better. If you can afford it, franchise him and see where you're at in 2020.

I'm less concerned with the corner play because the rules are so skewed against them it just doesn't really matter anymore. I'd play Tremon Smith and maybe look for guys like that in the 3rd and 4th rounds and just keep doing that.