Illegal Immigration: What should we do?

[Mr. Kotter]

MODS: I'm interested in finding out what CP members think about this issue, and while I understand it's an issue ripe for political discussion.....I'd ask for it to remain in the Lounge for a couple of days, if at all possible, before moving it to its inevitable death in DC.

Fellow ChiefsPlanet posters: Can we try to have a reasonable discussion over this issue without it becoming too heated and denigrating into purely partisan demagoguery or racist insults? Please?

FWIW, I'm following the debate over immigration legislation somewhat closely, and I'm trying to figure out what the middle ground--if there is any--on the issue might be.

Thanks in advance for you opinions and posts.

Poll to follow, shortly....

[Rain Man]

Originally Posted by Chief Faithful

Theodore Roosevelt was a pretty smart leader and he said:

Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907.
"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

Theodore Roosevelt was a wise man.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by ZachKC

Eh, thats a pretty good point.

They try and tell some meathead that's barely eeking out a C- average that he needs to spend 20-30k on college, when the reality is they should be pointing him to trade school or setting him up with a work program.

People look at accepting a job in construction as accepting failure. So you rarely get someone who's driven to make a successful career from it. Instead, you get the guy that will do it until one Friday when he wakes up and decides it sucks too much, and moves on to his next job that he'll hold down for 6 months to a year.

[patteeu]

Is illegal immigration the new gay marriage?

[Rain Man]

Yeah, I don't envy managers in the construction industry. I've been doing some research on low-wage employees, and the least stable of the lot almost invariably describe themselves as construction workers. It's uncanny.

[|Zach|]

Originally Posted by jspchief

They try and tell some meathead that's barely eeking out a C- average that he needs to spend 20-30k on college, when the reality is they should be pointing him to trade school or setting him up with a work program.

People look at accepting a job in construction as accepting failure. So you rarely get someone who's driven to make a successful career from it. Instead, you get the guy that will do it until one Friday when he wakes up and decides it sucks too much, and moves on to his next job that he'll hold down for 6 months to a year.

To be fair at my HS there was a lot of "selling" of what seemed like really strong votech programs. There was this place that they did all of those classes at and the whole school at one point during your sophmore year would take a tour of it.

There is a lot of intrest amongst people I know in construction managment and things of that nature but overall your main point is very valid.

I can only speak from my HS experience but I think its valid more so from the kid's perspective on it and less on the school's role.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

Yeah, I don't envy managers in the construction industry. I've been doing some research on low-wage employees, and the least stable of the lot almost invariably describe themselves as construction workers. It's uncanny.

I don't want to come off pro illegal. I'm the exact opposite.

But people need to realize that eliminating illegals will hit their pocket books. And the notion that there's a bunch of people that step into these jobs for a reasonable wage may be more than little off base.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Originally Posted by jspchief

You guys over-estimate the willingness of the unemployed American to work. There a large portion of people in this world tha tdon't want these jobs, regardless of what they pay. America breeds lazy bums. Youngs adults would rather make $7 per hour flipping burgers than $12 per hour working a construction site.

The notion that there is a host of people wanting these jobs is just wrong. No one wants to be a roofer or concrete worker. It's a shitty job, and to make it worthwhile the wage would probably have to double at least.

You're right unfortunately. I have a job opening for a boar semen collector. It pays 6.00 per hour. Do I have any takers ? I don't think so, because americans are ****ing lazy. Look at you guys right now, most of you are at work goofing off on the internet (like me).

Here is the real backbone behind the whole immigration problem. There are 3-4 million illegals in america working and receiving a paycheck in which Social Security is being deducted and payed into the system. That money goes to support social security with no way that it will be paid back to them because they are using an illegal SS number. Think about it. They are the ones supporting our retirement and the government knows it.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by Donger

Sorry, but that's rather simplistic.

Even in industries with high concentrations of illegal workers -- such as construction, restaurants and some parts of agriculture -- the impact isn't as great as many people think. If there weren't illegal immigrants working in construction in places like Chicago and Miami, then demand for legal workers would go up, which would mean wages would rise. But very quickly, legal workers from other parts of the country would move to those cities, and wages would go back down. The net impact on wages would be relatively modest.

That's probably the best summation I've seen.

THIS makes a LOT of sense, in my mind.

Anyone besides jspchief wanna take on Donger, or challenge the basic gist here? Are we missing something?

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by Kclee

Jesus was a carpenter.


(I'll leave it up to you to decide if I meant the son of God, or the mexican.)

Oh, the politically incorrect jokes I can think of with that as an inspiration.....

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

THIS makes a LOT of sense, in my mind.

Anyone besides jspchief wanna take on Donger, or challenge the basic gist here? Are we missing something?

I know I'm not allowed, but...

I also challenge the notion that people are going to move from city to city pursuing these low level jobs.

And it's not just the increased wage. It's the increased expense of paying legals. I can pay someone $500 under the table and it costs me $500, but to pay that same person $500 legally, it costs me around $700.

You can't in one breath admit that illegals equal cheap labor, and in the same breath say that the elimination of that cheap labor won't result in inflation in the industrries that use illegals heavily.

[patteeu]

I voted for "Crackdown harshly on businesses that are lazy, or who knowingly hire illegals" but I only favor this if verification is simple, cheap for the businesses, and hard to screw up. I'm very hesitant to put the enforcement burden on private businesses.

In general, I favor letting those who are here illegally and who wish to assimilate have a path toward citizenship. Increase legal immigration, deport criminals, and MOST OF ALL secure the border (whether that means a physical fence, a virtual fence, more border patrol, the military, or some combination). If we don't secure the border, none of the rest matters (and some of it, e.g. amnesty, will be counterproductive).

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

THIS makes a LOT of sense, in my mind.

Anyone besides jspchief wanna take on Donger, or challenge the basic gist here? Are we missing something?

We don't have a lot of legal workers to spare right now with the low unemployment rate. But if we increase legal immigration to replace the decreased illegal worker pool (which would hopefully result from a more secure border), the impact should be economically acceptable.

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by jspchief

I know I'm not allowed, but...

I also challenge the notion that people are going to move from city to city pursuing these low level jobs.

And it's not just the increased wage. It's the increased expense of paying legals. I can pay someone $500 under the table and it costs me $500, but to pay that same person $500 legally, it costs me around $700.

You can't in one breath admit that illegals equal cheap labor, and in the same breath say that the elimination of that cheap labor won't result in inflation in the industrries that use illegals heavily.

I agree with most of what you've said in this thread (except the hyperbole of course).

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by jspchief

I know I'm not allowed, but...

I also challenge the notion that people are going to move from city to city pursuing these low level jobs.

And it's not just the increased wage. It's the increased expense of paying legals. I can pay someone $500 under the table and it costs me $500, but to pay that same person $500 legally, it costs me around $700.

You can't in one breath admit that illegals equal cheap labor, and in the same breath say that the elimination of that cheap labor won't result in inflation in the industrries that use illegals heavily.

Sure you are allowed; I just wanted to root out some others too...

I think most will concede some inflation; I just think, in the long term, it wouldn't be as bad as some (you?) expect....

I realize Americans are cheap, but the bottom-line for me is....if the current system fosters illegal hiring by businesses, that needs to change--or the law needs to change, IMO.

Saying the law is one thing, and then winking and looking the other way when businesses circumvent the law is not something we should encourage or be proud of, IMO.

So either legalize it, or change the law.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by patteeu

We don't have a lot of legal workers to spare right now with the low unemployment rate. But if we increase legal immigration to replace the decreased illegal worker pool (which would hopefully result from a more secure border), the impact should be economically acceptable.

Then we should move quickly make them legal, or at a minimum "guest workers"....right now--instead of dissin' them.

I think Donger is right. I think a marginal increase in pay, coupled with the fact there are enough workers who'd be willing to take on second jobs or part-time jobs....that much of the loss could be absorbed, over the long run.