****Official 2009 ChiefsPlanet Mock Draft****

[OnTheWarpath15]

Round 1

1 LIONS (OnTheWarpath58) - Matthew Stafford, QB, Georgia
2 RAMS (Mr. Flopnuts) - Jason Smith, OT, Baylor
3 CHIEFS (Hamas Jenkins) - Mark Sanchez, QB, University of Southern California
4 SEAHAWKS (Eazyb81) - Eugene Monroe, OT, University of Virginia
5 BROWNS (Sfeihc) - Aaron Curry, LB, Wake Forest.
6 BENGALS (ChiefsCountry) - Everette Brown, DE, Florida State
7 RAIDERS (Spicy McHaggis) - Jeremy Maclin, WR, Missouri
8 JAGUARS (Archie Bunker) - Michael Crabtree, WR, Texas Tech
9 PACKERS (milkman) - BJ Raji, NT, Boston College
10 49ERS (DaKCMan AP) - Brian Orakpo, DE/OLB, Texas
11 BILLS (Mecca) - Rey Maualuga, LB, Southern California
12 BRONCOS (pestilenceaf23) - Tyson Jackson, DE, Louisiana State University
13 REDSKINS (BigChiefFan) - Michael Oher, OT, Mississippi
14 SAINTS (Direckshun) - Malcolm Jenkins, CB, Ohio State
15 TEXANS (Marco Polo) - Brian Cushing, OLB, Southern California
16 CHARGERS (Zouk) - Andre Smith, OT, Alabama
17 JETS (Archie Bunker) - Darrius Heyward-Bey WR, Maryland
18 BEARS (Mr. Flopnuts) - Aaron Maybin, DE, Penn State
19 BUCCANEERS (Hamas Jenkins) - Chris Wells, RB, Ohio State
20 LIONS (OnTheWarpath58) - Vontae Davis, CB, Illinois
21 EAGLES (pestilenceaf23) - Knowshon Moreno, RB, Georgia
22 VIKINGS (Sfeihc) - Alex Mack, C, California
23 PATRIOTS (OnTheWarpath58) - James Laurinaitis, ILB, Ohio State
24 FALCONS (milkman) - Clay Matthews, LB, Southern California
25 DOLPHINS (Spicy McHaggis) - Larry English, DE/OLB, Northern Illinois
26 RAVENS (DaKCMan AP) - Alphonso Smith, CB, Wake Forest
27 EAGLES (pestilenceaf23) - Brandon Pettigrew, TE, Oklahoma State
28 COLTS (Mecca) - Percy Harvin, WR, Florida
29 GIANTS (Direckshun) - Michael Johnson, DE, Georgia Tech
30 TITANS (Zouk) - DJ Moore, CB, Vanderbilt
31 CARDINALS (Eazyb81) - LeSean McCoy, RB, Pittsburgh
32 STEELERS (Marco Polo) - Eben Britton, OT, Arizona


Round 2


33 LIONS (OnTheWarpath58) - William Beatty, OT, Connecticut
34 PATRIOTS (OnTheWarpath58) - Clint Sintim, OLB, Virginia
35 RAMS (Mr. Flopnuts) - Darius Butler, CB, Connecticut
36 BROWNS (Sfeihc) - Connor Barwin, DE/OLB/TE, Cincinnati
37 SEAHAWKS (Eazyb81) - Josh Freeman, QB, Kansas State
38 BENGALS (ChiefsCountry) - Jamon Meredith, OT, South Carolina
39 JAGUARS (Archie Bunker) - Max Unger G/C, Oregon
40 RAIDERS (Spicy McHaggis) - Peria Jerry, DT, Ole Miss
41 PACKERS (milkman) - Fenuki Topou, OT, Oregon
42 BILLS (Mecca) - Jared Cook, TE, South Carolina
43 49ERS (DaKCMan AP) - Hakeem Nicks, WR, North Carolina
44 DOLPHINS (Spicy McHaggis) - Duke Robinson, OG, Oklahoma
45 GIANTS (Direckshun) - Sean Smith, DB, Utah
46 TEXANS (Marco Polo) - Donald Brown, RB, Connecticut
47 PATRIOTS (OnTheWarpath58) - Patrick Chung, SS, Oregon
48 BRONCOS (pestilenceaf23) - Ron Brace, DT/NT, Boston College
49 BEARS (Mr. Flopnuts) - Kenny Britt, WR, Rutgers
50 BROWNS (Sfeihc) - Brian Robiskie, WR, Ohio State
51 COWBOYS (ChiefsCountry) - William Moore, S, Missouri
52 JETS (Archie Bunker) - Jarron Gilbert, DE, San Jose State
53 EAGLES (pestilenceaf23) - Robert Ayers, DE, University of Tennessee
54 VIKINGS (Sfeihc) - Phil Loadholt, OT, Oklahoma
55 FALCONS (milkman) - Shawn Nelson, TE, Southern Miss
56 DOLPHINS (Spicy McHaggis) - Louis Delmas, S, Western Michigan
57 RAVENS (DaKCMan AP) - Darry Beckwith, ILB, LSU
58 PATRIOTS (OnTheWarpath58) - Jairus Byrd, CB, Oregon
59 COLTS (Mecca) - Eric Wood, C, Louisville
60 GIANTS (Direckshun) - Louis Murphy, WR, Florida
61 PANTHERS (BigChiefFan) - Fili Moala, DT, Southern California
62 TITANS (Zouk) - Juaquin Iglesias, WR, Oklahoma
63 CARDINALS (Eazyb81) - Lawrence Sidbury, OLB, Richmond
64 STEELERS (Marco Polo) - Chris Baker, NT, Hampton



Round 3


65 LIONS (OnTheWarpath58) - Evander Hood, DT, Missouri
66 RAMS (Mr. Flopnuts) - Sen'Derrick Marks DT Auburn
67 CHIEFS (Hamas Jenkins) - Cody Brown, OLB, Connecticut
68 SEAHAWKS (Eazyb81) - Rashad Johnson, FS, Alabama
69 COWBOYS (ChiefsCountry) - Herman Johnson, OG, LSU
70 BENGALS (ChiefsCountry) - Antoine Caldwell, C, Alabama
71 RAIDERS (Spicy McHaggis) - Paul Kruger, DE, Utah
72 JAGUARS (Archie Bunker) - Troy Kropog, OT, Tulane
73 PACKERS (milkman) - James Davis, RB, Clemson
74 49ERS (DaKCMan AP) - Victor "Macho" Harris, CB, Virginia Tech
75 BILLS (Mecca) - Andy Levitre, OG, Oregon State
76 JETS (Archie Bunker) - Chase Coffman, TE, Missouri
77 TEXANS (Marco Polo) - Nic Harris, SS, Oklahoma
78 CHARGERS (Zouk) - Dorell Scott, DT, Clemson
79 BRONCOS (pestilenceaf23) - Nate Davis, QB, Ball State
80 REDSKINS (BigChiefFan) - Brandon Gibson, WR, Washington State University
81 BUCCANEERS (Hamas Jenkins) - Coye Francies, CB, San Jose State
82 LIONS (OnTheWarpath58) - Derrick Williams, WR, Penn State
83 PACKERS (milkman) - Mike Mickens, CB, Cinncinnati
84 BEARS (Mr. Flopnuts) - Jonathan Luigs, C, Arkansas
85 EAGLES (pestilenceaf23) - Xavier Fulton, OT, Illinois
86 VIKINGS (Sfeihc) - Alex Magee, DT, Purdue
87 DOLPHINS (Spicy McHaggis) - Ramses Barden, WR, Cal Poly
88 RAVENS (DaKCMan AP) - Mitch King, DE, Iowa
89 PATRIOTS (OnTheWarpath58) - Kraig Urbik, OG, Wisconsin
90 FALCONS (milkman) - Matt Shaughnessy, DE, Wisconsin
91 GIANTS (Direckshun) - Chase Daniel, QB, Missouri
92 PANTHERS (BigChiefFan) - Phillip Hunt, OLB, Houston
93 COLTS (Mecca) - Marcus Freeman OLB, Ohio State
94 TITANS (Zouk) - Sherrod Martin, CB, Troy
95 CARDINALS (Eazyb81) - Trevor Canfield, OG, Cincinnati
96 STEELERS (BigChiefFan) - Rashad Jennings, RB, Liberty
PATRIOTS (OnTheWarpath58) - James Casey, TE, Rice
BENGALS (ChiefsCountry) - Shonn Greene, RB Iowa
BEARS (Mr. Flopnuts) - TJ Lang, OT, Eastern Michigan
GIANTS (Direckshun) - Gerald McRath, LB, Southern Miss



Round 4


97 COWBOYS (ChiefsCountry) - Sammie Lee Hill, DT, Stillman
98 CHIEFS (Hamas Jenkins) - Gerald Cadogan, OT, Penn State University
99 RAMS (Mr. Flopnuts) - Tyrone McKenzie, OLB, South Florida
100 BROWNS (Sfeihc) - Kory Sheets, RB, Purdue
101 SEAHAWKS (Eazyb81) - Ricky Jean-Francois, DT, LSU
102 BENGALS (ChiefsCountry) - Cornelius Ingram, TE, Florida
103 JAGUARS (Archie Bunker) - Andre Brown, RB, North Carolina St
104 RAIDERS (Spicy McHaggis) - Mohamed Massaquoi, WR, Georgia
105 PACKERS (milkman) - Stryker Sulak, DE/OLB, Missouri
106 BILLS (Mecca) - Kevin Barnes, CB, Maryland
107 49ERS (DaKCMan AP) - Dannell Ellerbe, ILB, Georgia
108 TEXANS (Marco Polo) - Pat White, QB, West Virginia
109 CHARGERS (Zouk) - Chip Vaughn, S, Wake Forest
110 BRONCOS (pestilenceaf23) - Brandon Williams, DE/OLB, Texas Tech
111 JETS (Archie Bunker) - Michael Hamlin, S, Clemson
112 SAINTS (Direckshun) - Zack Follett, OLB, California
113 COWBOYS (ChiefsCountry) - Sebastian Vollmer, OT, Houston
114 JETS (Archie Bunker) - Keenan Lewis, CB, Oregon St
115 BEARS (Mr. Flopnuts) - Derrick Pegues, FS, Mississippi State
116 BUCCANEERS (Hamas Jenkins) - Rhett Bomar, QB, Sam Houston State
117 EAGLES (pestilenceaf23) - Aaron Kelly, WR, Clemson
118 TEXANS (Marco Polo) - Asher Allen, CB, Georgia
119 RAVENS (DaKCMan AP) - Travis Beckum, TE, Wisconsin
120 PATRIOTS (OnTheWarpath58) - Jasper Brinkley, ILB, South Carolina
121 FALCONS (milkman) - Jamarca Sanford, SS, Ole Miss
122 DOLPHINS (Spicy McHaggis) - Scott McKillop, LB, Pitt
123 PANTHERS (BigChiefFan) - Tyronne Green, OG, Auburn
124 COLTS (Mecca) - Terrance Taylor, DT, Michigan
125 GIANTS (Direckshun) - Daniel Holtzclaw, MLB, Eastern Michigan
126 TITANS (Zouk) - Lydon Murtha OT Nebraska
127 CARDINALS (Eazyb81) - Donald Washington, CB, Ohio State
128 STEELERS (BigChiefFan) - Jason Phillips, ILB, TCU
CHARGERS (Zouk) - Mike Thomas WR, Arizona
CHARGERS (Zouk) - Javon Ringer RB, Michigan St.
TITANS (Zouk) - Jason Williams LB, W. Illinois.
COLTS (Mecca) - Kaluka Maiava, OLB, USC



Round 5


129 LIONS (OnTheWarpath58) - David Bruton, FS, Notre Dame
130 RAMS (Mr. Flopnuts) - Cedric Peerman RB Virginia
131 CHIEFS (Hamas Jenkins) - Cornelius Lewis OG/RT, Tennessee State.
132 BRONCOS (pestilenceaf23) - Jason McCourty, CB, Rutgers
133 EAGLES (pestilenceaf23) - A.Q. Shipley, OG/OC, Penn State
134 BENGALS (ChiefsCountry) - Vance Walker, DT Georgia Tech
135 FALCONS (milkman) - Ra'Shon Harris, DT, Oregon
136 JAGUARS (Archie Bunker) - Mike Wallace, WR, Ole Miss
137 PACKERS (milkman) - Will Johnson, DT/DE, Michigan
138 49ERS (DaKCMan AP) - Jason Watkins, OT, Florida
139 BILLS (Mecca) - Chris Clemons, S, Clemson
140 CHARGERS (Zouk) - Alex Fletcher, C, Stanford
141 BRONCOS (pestilenceaf23) - Worrell Williams, ILB, California
142 REDSKINS (BigChiefFan) - Louis Vasquez, OG, Texas Tech
143 GIANTS (Direckshun) - Antone Smith, RB, Florida State
144 TEXANS (Marco Polo) - Mark Parson, CB, Ohio
145 EAGLES (pestilenceaf23) - Darcel McBath, FS, Texas Tech
146 BEARS (Mr. Flopnuts) - Clinton McDonald, DT,Memphis
147 BUCCANEERS (Hamas Jenkins) - Jonathan Casillas, OLB, Wisconsin
148 COWBOYS (ChiefsCountry) - Domonique Johnson, CB, Jackson State
149 EAGLES (pestilenceaf23) - Brandon Hughes, CB, Oregon State
150 VIKINGS (Sfeihc) - Joe Burnett, CB, UCF
151 PATRIOTS (OnTheWarpath58) - Mike Goodson, RB, Texas A&M
152 FALCONS (milkman) - Roger Allen, G, Missouri Western St.
153 DOLPHINS (Spicy McHaggis) - Glen Coffee, RB, Alabama
154 RAVENS (DaKCMan AP) -Kevin Ogletree, WR, Virginia
155 COLTS (Mecca) - Arian Foster, RB, Tennessee
156 GIANTS (Direckshun) - Brice McCain,CB, Utah
157 PANTHERS (BigChiefFan) - Johnny Knox, WR, Abilene Christian
158 COWBOYS (ChiefsCountry) - Jarett Dillard, WR, Rice
159 CARDINALS (Eazyb81) - Ian Campbell, OLB, Kansas State
160 STEELERS (BigChiefFan) - Austin Collie, WR, BYU
STEELERS (BigChiefFan) - Joel Bell, OT, Furman
PATRIOTS (OnTheWarpath58) - Brandon Tate, WR, North Carolina
49ERS (DaKCMan AP) - Christopher Owens, CB, San Jose State
COWBOYS (ChiefsCountry) - Henry Melton, DE/OLB, Texas
TITANS (Zouk) - Corvey Irvin, DT, Georgia



Round 6


161 LIONS (OnTheWarpath58) - DeAngelo Smith, CB, Cincinnati
162 CHIEFS (Hamas Jenkins) - Terrance Knighton, DT/DE, Temple
163 RAMS (Mr. Flopnuts) - Orion Martin, DE, Virginia Tech
164 BROWNS (Sfeihc) - Sammie Stroughter, WR, Oregon State
165 SEAHAWKS (Eazyb81) - Marlon Lucky, RB, Nebraska
166 BENGALS (ChiefsCountry)
167 JAGUARS (Archie Bunker)
168 RAIDERS (Spicy McHaggis)
169 PACKERS (milkman)
170 BILLS (Mecca)
171 49ERS (DaKCMan AP)
172 BRONCOS (pestilenceaf23)
173 REDSKINS (BigChiefFan)
174 PACKERS (milkman)
175 TEXANS (Marco Polo)
176 CHARGERS (Zouk)
177 BEARS (Mr. Flopnuts)
178 BEARS (Mr. Flopnuts)
179 LIONS (OnTheWarpath58)
180 JETS (Archie Bunker)
181 EAGLES (pestilenceaf23)
182 EAGLES (pestilenceaf23)
183 FALCONS (milkman)
184 COWBOYS (ChiefsCountry)
185 RAVENS (DaKCMan AP)
186 PATRIOTS (OnTheWarpath58)
187 GIANTS (Direckshun)
188 PANTHERS (BigChiefFan)
189 COLTS (Mecca)
190 TITANS (Zouk)
191 CARDINALS (Eazyb81)
192 STEELERS (BigChiefFan)
TITANS (Zouk)
PATRIOTS (OnTheWarpath58)
COWBOYS (ChiefsCountry)
BENGALS (ChiefsCountry)



Round 7


193 COWBOYS (ChiefsCountry)
194 RAMS (Mr. Flopnuts)
195 CHIEFS (Hamas Jenkins)
196 SEAHAWKS (Eazyb81)
197 DOLPHINS (Spicy McHaggis)
198 BENGALS (ChiefsCountry)
199 RAIDERS (Spicy McHaggis)
200 BUCCANEERS (Hamas Jenkins)
201 PACKERS (milkman)
202 49ERS (DaKCMan AP)
203 BILLS (Mecca)
204 VIKINGS (Sfeihc)
205 SAINTS (Direckshun)
206 TEXANS (Marco Polo)
207 CHARGERS (Zouk)
208 BRONCOS (pestilenceaf23)
209 STEELERS (BigChiefFan)
210 COWBOYS (ChiefsCountry)
211 JETS (Archie Bunker)
212 BUCCANEERS (Hamas Jenkins)
213 EAGLES (pestilenceaf23)
214 VIKINGS (Sfeihc)
215 DOLPHINS (Spicy McHaggis)
216 BUCCANEERS (Hamas Jenkins)
217 PATRIOTS (OnTheWarpath58)
218 BRONCOS (pestilenceaf23)
219 PANTHERS (BigChiefFan)
220 COLTS (Mecca)
221 GIANTS (Direckshun)
222 TITANS (Zouk)
223 CARDINALS (Eazyb81)
224 STEELERS (BigChiefFan)
TITANS (Zouk)
REDSKINS (BigChiefFan)
49ERS (DaKCMan AP)
SEAHAWKS (Eazyb81)
BEARS (Mr. Flopnuts)
SEAHAWKS (Eazyb81)
SEAHAWKS (Eazyb81)
BENGALS (ChiefsCountry)
JAGUARS (Archie Bunker)
BEARS (Mr. Flopnuts)
BENGALS (ChiefsCountry)
JAGUARS (Archie Bunker)
CARDINALS (Eazyb81)
LIONS (OnTheWarpath58)
CHIEFS (Hamas Jenkins)

[orange]

Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry

Jimmy Johnson did in Dallas.

No, he didn't.

Sorry to introduce reality here when this line is going so well, but...

JJ drafted Walsh with a supplemental pick.

Walsh wasn't available in the normal draft...

He didn't cost the Cowboys an extra pick like Cassel cost the Chiefs - just a future selection.

[ChiefsCountry]

Originally Posted by orange

He didn't cost the Cowboys an extra pick like Cassel cost the Chiefs.

He cost them #1 overall pick in 1990.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by orange

No, he didn't.

Sorry to introduce reality here when this line is going so well, but...

JJ drafted Walsh with a supplemental pick.

Walsh wasn't available in the normal draft...

He didn't cost the Cowboys an extra pick like Cassel cost the Chiefs.

You realize how the supplemental draft works, right?

They bid a 1st round pickin 1989, and when they were awarded Walsh, they forfeited a 1st round pick the following year.

So, they used 2 first-round picks on QB's in 1989 and 1990.

[eazyb81]

Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry

He cost them #1 overall pick in 1990.

and it was an incredibly stupid decision that people railed JJ on for years.

That type of scenario isn't as realistic now because of the salary cap and escalating rookie contracts.

[Spicy McHaggis]

I thought about Raji simply from a talent standpoint but the Raiders have tied up in insane amount of $$$ in bad DT's lately and I don't want to stack a top 10 contract on top of it.

The Pudgy Wonder needs someone to throw to. That person might be Michael Crabtree. However, he's not going to have a 40 time. And Al Davis loves his 40 times.

The choice may shock some but I think the Faders go Jeremy Maclin, WR, Missouri
over the possession type wideout Crabtree projects as.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by Spicy McHaggis

I thought about Raji simply from a talent standpoint but the Raiders have tied up in insane amount of $$$ in bad DT's lately and I don't want to stack a top 10 contract on top of it.

The Pudgy Wonder needs someone to throw to. That person might be Michael Crabtree. However, he's not going to have a 40 time. And Al Davis loves his 40 times.

The choice may shock some but I think the Faders go Jeremy Maclin, WR, Missouri
over the possession type wideout Crabtree projects as.

Wouldn't shock me at all.

When it comes to Al Davis, when in doubt, go with the fastest player on the board.

I can easily see this being the pick.

[orange]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

You realize how the supplemental draft works, right?

They bid a 1st round pickin 1989, and when they were awarded Walsh, they forfeited a 1st round pick the following year.

So, they used 2 first-round picks on QB's in 1989 and 1990.

They didn't know they were going to get the #1 in 1990. And they still had their second-rounder in 1989. It is NOT the same as spending your 1st and 2nd rounders for QBs in this mock draft.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Jaguars are on the clock.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Wouldn't shock me at all.

When it comes to Al Davis, when in doubt, go with the fastest player on the board.

I can easily see this being the pick.

I would honestly see them going with Heyward-Bey if that was the case. Al Davis loves fast and he loves freaks. Heyward-Bey combines those two.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by orange

They didn't know they were going to get the #1 in 1990. And they still had their second-rounder in 1989. It is NOT the same as spending your 1st and 2nd rounders for QBs in this mock draft.

You're right.

It's not the same.

It's worse.

They gave up 1st round picks in consecutive years on QB's.

The whole point of this is that unless the kid absolutely shits in his helmet in 2009, there's a good chance we could recoup that 2nd round pick by trading him in 2010. There might be a chance we could repeat what the Cowboys did and recoup a 1st round pick.

You all can call JJ stupid, but he has multiple rings directly because of that decision.

There's no way they take Emmitt Smith that high in 1990. The pick from the Saints was perfect.

[orange]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

The whole point of this is that unless the kid absolutely shits in his helmet in 2009, there's a good chance we could recoup that 2nd round pick by trading him in 2010. There might be a chance we could repeat what the Cowboys did and recoup a 1st round pick.

Very doubtful. Cassel has established his value as [2nd rounder - Vrabel]. If he played up to 1st rounder level, why would you trade him?

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by orange

Very doubtful. Cassel has established his value as 2nd rounder. If he played up to 1st rounder level, why would you trade him?

He's only had 1 year of playing experience period, and teams were reportedly willing to trade a HIGH 1st for him.

He could have a very average year, and a QB-desperate team would pull the trigger.

Again, I'm not saying this will happen, but I understand Hamas' rational for making the choice he did - and I wouldn't be upset in the least if it worked out that way on draft day.

[eazyb81]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

You're right.

It's not the same.

It's worse.

They gave up 1st round picks in consecutive years on QB's.

The whole point of this is that unless the kid absolutely shits in his helmet in 2009, there's a good chance we could recoup that 2nd round pick by trading him in 2010. There might be a chance we could repeat what the Cowboys did and recoup a 1st round pick.

You all can call JJ stupid, but he has multiple rings directly because of that decision.

There's no way they take Emmitt Smith that high in 1990. The pick from the Saints was perfect.

It is funny how it worked out, because in all likelihood they would have drafted PSU RB Blair Thomas, who was supposedly an elite RB that year and he ended up being a colossal bust.

Still, I don't think it's fair to say that you can't criticize this move because JJ has rings. That would be like someone telling you not to criticize the Cassel trade or Pioli's recent drafting history because he has rings. Most Cowboys fans still consider that JJ's worst mistake, and it could have cost them dearly.

[orange]

Originally Posted by pestilenceaf23

Dude...what the hell? Now what am I supposed to do for the Broncos?

Build their front seven for a 3-4. They probably have ROLB (Dumervil) and one ILB (Williams) and a serviceable NT (Thomas). Everything else plus an upgrade at NT are options.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by eazyb81

It is funny how it worked out, because in all likelihood they would have drafted PSU RB Blair Thomas, who was supposedly an elite RB that year and he ended up being a colossal bust.

Still, I don't think it's fair to say that you can't criticize this move because JJ has rings. That would be like someone telling you not to criticize the Cassel trade or Pioli's recent drafting history because he has rings. Most Cowboys fans still consider that JJ's worst mistake, and it could have cost them dearly.

Uh, no it wouldn't.

You're criticizing a decision that directly led to THREE Super Bowl rings.

At the TIME, sure criticize away. In retrospect, it appears he knows exactly what he was doing.

There is no comparison between that, and criticizing Pioli for a decision that we won't be able to determine as a failure or success for several years, especially when the rings in question have nothing to do with this particular decisiojnn.