Mike Vrabel

[Amnorix]

Let me point out something else --

nobody on here, despite much discussion about the topic, has much feel for how much 3-4 versus 4-3 the team wants to play, or how well they project their current players in filling those roles.

They want to go to 3-4, and yet your roster isn't exactly loaded with guys who are well suited for that. The transition is a multiyear process. OLB is one of the tougher positions to fill.

Vrabel gives them someone who can do the OLB thing, and can help the younger players that can fit into that system do that. He has experience both at OLB and ILB, and can play and help other players with both roles.

What the hell 5th, 6th or 7th round pick can do any of that? Answer: none.

[Amnorix]

Just to establish that you need to get a bit more of a grip, here's the history fo Patriots drafts under BB/SP

And note how often the PATRIOTS trade late round picks for NFL players.

2008 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
1	7	To New Orleans
1	10	Jerod Mayo	LB	Tennessee	From New Orleans, along with a 3rd (78), for a 1st (7) and a 5th (164)
2	62	Terrence Wheatley	CB	Colorado
3	69	To San Diego
3	78	Shawn Crable	LB	Michigan	From New Orleans (see above)
3	94	Kevin O'Connell	QB	San Diego State
4	129	Jonathan Wilhite	CB	Auburn
5	153	Matt Slater	WR	UCLA	From Tampa Bay for a 5th (160) and a 7th (238)
5	160	To Tampa Bay
5	164	To New Orleans
6	197	Bo Ruud	LB	Nebraska
7	238	To Tampa Bay

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Just to establish that you need to get a bit more of a grip, here's the history fo Patriots drafts under BB/SP

And note how often the PATRIOTS trade late round picks for NFL players.

Which is a great plan when you have a hole here and there to fill, or need someone in a complementary role, or as a special teamer.

But when you've gone 6-26 over the last two years and you can count the talented players you have on both hands, you need all the draft picks you can get.

If I've said it once, I've said it a million times:

I understand and value what he'll bring to the locker room NOW.

I'd have no problem with this had we signed him as a FA.

I just don't agree with the idea of a rebuilding team giving up picks for an aging, part-time player in his last year.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

But when you've gone 6-26 over the last two years and you can count the talented players you have on both hands, you need all the draft picks you can get.

If I've said it once, I've said it a million times:

I understand and value what he'll bring to the locker room NOW.

I'd have no problem with this had we signed him as a FA.

I just don't agree with the idea of a rebuilding team giving up picks for an aging, part-time player in his last year.

Seriously, have you read a single book on building a team? Go get Won for All or Management Secrets of teh New England Patriots or Patriots Reign or something to get some appreciation into the BB/SP system.

You're overly focused on talent. Do you think you mgiht draft ONE OR TWO defensive rookies THIS YEAR for that suck-ass defense of yours? Do you think having someone like Vrabel show him how to conduct himself on a path to NFL success might be slightly useful?

Do you think your ENTIRE roster will be flushed?

Fine -- do it your way. The Patriots, Colts and Steelers will continue to crush your squad as you focus exclusively on talent and ignore the other variables that are critical towards building a winning NFL football team

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Seriously, have you read a single book on building a team? Go get Won for All or Management Secrets of teh New England Patriots or Patriots Reign or something to get some appreciation into the BB/SP system.

You're overly focused on talent. Do you think you mgiht draft ONE OR TWO defensive rookies THIS YEAR for that suck-ass defense of yours? Do you think having someone like Vrabel show him how to conduct himself on a path to NFL success might be slightly useful?

Do you think your ENTIRE roster will be flushed?

Fine -- do it your way. The Patriots, Colts and Steelers will continue to crush your squad as you focus exclusively on talent and ignore the other variables that are critical towards building a winning NFL football team

I've read Patriot Reign twice.

What the Patriots did in 2001 can't be used as a comparison. They already HAD TALENT. They weren't starting from scratch.

I'm not suggesting we ignore these other variables, but without some talent, it means nothing.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

I've read Patriot Reign twice.

What the Patriots did in 2001 can't be used as a comparison. They already HAD TALENT. They weren't starting from scratch.

I'm not suggesting we ignore these other variables, but without some talent, it means nothing.

I agree. We had more talent than you. We also had more team leadership than you.

Hell, you guys have NONE on the defensive side of the ball. ZERO. Zip, nada. You think you don't need leadership on the defensive side of teh ball? You're insane.

And you wonder why your defense flat sucks? It's more than talent. It's youth and lack of leadership and alot more besides.

You want to focus on TALENT exclusive of all else. That's absurd. It's TEAM, not just talent.

[Hootie]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Seriously, have you read a single book on building a team? Go get Won for All or Management Secrets of teh New England Patriots or Patriots Reign or something to get some appreciation into the BB/SP system.

You're overly focused on talent. Do you think you mgiht draft ONE OR TWO defensive rookies THIS YEAR for that suck-ass defense of yours? Do you think having someone like Vrabel show him how to conduct himself on a path to NFL success might be slightly useful?

Do you think your ENTIRE roster will be flushed?

Fine -- do it your way. The Patriots, Colts and Steelers will continue to crush your squad as you focus exclusively on talent and ignore the other variables that are critical towards building a winning NFL football team

I tried explaining this to him earlier...but he's a drafturbator...you can't reason with him.

[Amnorix]

2007 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
1	24	Brandon Meriweather	S	Miami (Fla.)	From Seattle for WR Deion Branch
2	To Miami as part of trade for WR Wes Welker
4	To Oakland in exchange for WR Randy Moss
4	127	Kareem Brown	DL	Miami (Fla.)
5	171	Clint Oldenburg	OL	Colorado State	Compensatory pick
6	180	Justin Rogers	LB	SMU	From Arizona for T Brandon Gorin
6	202	Mike Richardson	CB	Notre Dame
6	208	Justise Hairston	RB	Central Conn.	Compensatory pick
6	209	Corey Hilliard	T	Oklahoma State	Compensatory pick
7	211	Oscar Lua	LB	Southern Cal	From Oakland, along with a 3rd in 2008, for a 3rd (91)
7	To Miami as part of trade for WR Wes Welker
7	247	Mike Elgin	C	Iowa	Compensatory pick

2006 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
1	21	Laurence Maroney	RB	Minnesota
2	36	Chad Jackson	WR	Florida	From Green Bay for a 2nd (52) and a 3rd (75)
3	86	Dave Thomas	TE	Texas
4	106	Garrett Mills	FB	Tulsa	From Detroit for a 5th (145) in 2005 and a 6th (206) in 2005
4	118	Stephen Gostkowski	K	Memphis
5	136	Ryan O'Callaghan	T	California	From Oakland, along with a 7th (230) in 2005, for a 6th (175) in 2005
6	191	Jeremy Mincey	LB	Florida
6	205	Dan Stevenson	G	Notre Dame	Compensatory pick
6	206	Le Kevin Smith	DL	Nebraska	Compensatory pick
7	229	Willie Andrews	DB	Baylor

[Amnorix]

2005 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
1	32	Logan Mankins	G	Fresno State
3	84	Ellis Hobbs	CB	Iowa State	From Baltimore, along with a 6th (195) in 2005 and a 3rd in 2006, for a 2nd (64)
3	To Arizona as part of trade for CB Duane Starks
3	100	Kick Kaczur	T	Toledo	Compensatory pick
4	133	James Sanders	S	Fresno State
5	To Arizona as part of trade for CB Duane Starks
5	170	Ryan Claridge	LB	Nevada-LV	Compensatory pick
7	230	Matt Cassel	QB	USC	From Oakland, along with a 5th (136) in 2006, for a 6th (175, from Green Bay)
7	255	Andy Stokes	TE	William Penn	Compensatory pick

[Amnorix]

2004 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
1	21	Vince Wilfork	DT	Miami (Fla.)	From Baltimore, along with a 2nd (41) in 2003, for a 1st (19) in 2003
1	32	Benjamin Watson	TE	Georgia
2	To Cincinnati in exchange for RB Corey Dillon
2	63	Marquise Hill	DE	LSU
3	95	Guss Scott	S	Florida
4	113	Dexter Reid	S	No. Carolina	From New Orleans, along with a 3rd (78) in 2003 and a 7th (239) in 2003, for S Tebucky Jones
4	128	Cedric Cobbs	RB	Arkansas
5	164	P.K. Sam	WR	Florida State
6	To Pittsburgh in compensation for RFA Rodney Bailey
7	233	Christian Morton	CB	Illinois

2003 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
1	13	Ty Warren	DL	Texas A&M	From Chicago for a 1st (14) and 6th (193)
2	36	Eugene Wilson	DB	Illinois	From Houston, along with a 4th (117), for a 2nd (41) and 3rd (75)
2	45	Bethel Johnson	WR	Texas A&M	From Carolina for a 2nd (50) and 4th (120)
4	117	Dan Klecko	DT	Temple	From Houston, along with a 2nd (36), for a 2nd (41) and 3rd (75)
4	120	Asante Samuel	CB	Central Florida	From Denver for a 4th (128) and 5th (157)
5	164	Dan Koppen	C	Boston College	From Tennessee, along with a 6th (201) and 7th (243), for a 5th (154) and 7th (225)
6	201	Kliff Kingsbury	QB	Texas Tech	From Tennessee, along with a 5th (164) and 7th (243), for a 5th (154) and 7th (225)
7	234	Spencer Nead	TE	BYU
7	239	Tully Banta-Cain	LB	California	From New Orleans, along with a 3rd (78) in 2003 and a 4th in 2004, for Tebucky Jones
7	243	Ethan Kelley	NT	Baylor	From Tennessee, along with a 5th (164) and 6th (201), for a 5th (154) and 7th (225)

[Amnorix]

2002 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
1	21	Daniel Graham	TE	Colorado	From Washington for a 1st (32), 3rd (96) and a 7th (234)
2	65	Deion Branch	WR	Louisville
4	117	Rohan Davey	QB	LSU	From Denver for a 4th (131) and a 5th (144)
4	126	Jarvis Green	DL	LSU	From Green Bay for WR Terry Glenn
7	237	Antwoine Womack	RB	Virginia	From Dallas, along with a 5th in 2003, for a 5th (168)
7	253	David Givens	WR	Notre Dame

2001 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
1	6	Richard Seymour	DL	Georgia
2	48	Matt Light	T	Purdue	From Detroit for a 2nd (50, from Pittsburgh) and a 6th (173, from San Francisco)
3	86	Brock Williams	CB	Notre Dame	From Minnesota (NE trades a 3rd (69) to Minnesota for a 3rd (86) and a 4th (119))
4	96	Kenyatta Jones	T	South Florida	From San Diego (NE trades a 4th (112) and a 5th (139) to San Diego for a 4th (96))
4	119	Jabari Holloway	TE	Notre Dame	From Minnesota (see Round 3)
5	163	Hakim Akbar	S	Washington	Compensatory pick
6	180	Arther Love	TE	South Carolina State	From Detroit (NE trades a 5th (149) to Detroit for a 6th (180) and a 7th (216))
6	200	Leonard Myers	CB	Miami (Fla.)	Compensatory pick
7	216	Owen Pochman	K	Brigham Young	From Detroit (see Round 6)
7	239	T.J. Turner	LB	Michigan State	Compensatory pick

[Amnorix]

2000 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
1	To the NY Jets in compensation for Bill Belichick
2	46	Adrian Klemm	T	Hawaii
3	76	J.R. Redmond	RB	Arizona State
4	127	Greg Robinson-Randall	T	Michigan State	Compensatory pick
5	141	Dave Stachelski	TE	Boise State
5	161	Jeff Marriott	DE	Missouri	From St. Louis for DE Mike Jones
6	187	Antwan Harris	DB	Virginia
6	199	Tom Brady	QB	Michigan	Compensatory pick
6	201	David Nugent	DE	Purdue	Compensatory pick
7	To San Francisco from Philadelphia
7	226	Casey Tisdale	LB	New Mexico
7	239	Patrick Pass	FB	Georgia	Compensatory pick

[Tipford]

I know this may be a stupid question to ask, but if the Chiefs are moving to the 3-4 defence as their base defence next year, what are they going to do with a player like Glenn Dorsey? Right now in my opinion, he is a player without a position to play of this team. He just doesn't have the body type to be asked to pack on the pounds and move into the nose tackle position. Tank Tyler is hugely more suited to pack on the pounds and move into the space eating nose tackle to keep the opposing offensive line off the linebackers in a 3-4 scheme. We might as well try trading Dorsey at this point to a team like Tennessee, since they are looking for a replacement for Haynesworth.

[Ultra Peanut]

Veteran leadership is nice, and all, but you have to have some talent in place before it can be led.

If it's a 7th rounder, whatever, but the overall shift in scheme and the lost opportunity to try to get a player capable of being around for more than two years is pretty disheartening if it's much more than that.

Originally Posted by Amnorix

He is, of course, on the downside of his career. Last year there was a very noticeable dropoff in his ability to make impact plays. Whereas in years gone by he stood out on the field for making key plays, last year he wasn't very noticeable. That's good in that you didn't often look at him as having screwed something up, but it's bad in that he wasn't making the strip-sacks that had earned him the love of Patriots fans.

He's a shell of his former self! I'm so excited!

Originally Posted by Tipford

I know this may be a stupid question to ask, but if the Chiefs are moving to the 3-4 defence as their base defence next year, what are they going to do with a player like Glenn Dorsey?

Flush him down the toilet.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by Ultra Peanut

Veteran leadership is nice, and all, but you have to have some talent in place before it can be led.

Exactly.