Mike Vrabel

[Amnorix]

As I did when Pioli came over, I'll post a separate thread because I think it's fair to say that I might have just a little more knowledge about the guy than most on here.

What you guys have traded for is a very smart, team-driven, reliable and consistent performer able to play both inside and outside linebacker in the 3-4, with championship credentials and very good leadership skills.

In my opinion, the reasons that the Chiefs have made this trade are as follows:

1. Veteran leadership. The Chiefs are VERY young. Rather than yet another young draft pick player, the Chiefs have decided that even though he is on the downside of his career and will only play for another year or two, it is important to bring in someone who can show the younger players HOW to practice, HOW to review film, HOW to prepare for games and be coachable, and HOW to play 3-4 linebacker.

2. Defensive flexibility. Vrabel can play both inside and outside in the 3-4 with relatively equal facility. A solid performer, he can set the edge, rush the passer and play hardnosed in the middle.

3. Position flexibility. In addition to his inside/outside talents in the 3-4, he also plays TE in goal line situations, showing the rest of the team that he is able and willing to do WHATEVER the coaches ask to help the team win.

He is, of course, on the downside of his career. Last year there was a very noticeable dropoff in his ability to make impact plays. Whereas in years gone by he stood out on the field for making key plays, last year he wasn't very noticeable. That's good in that you didn't often look at him as having screwed something up, but it's bad in that he wasn't making the strip-sacks that had earned him the love of Patriots fans.

Many here denigrate what he will bring ON the field, and wonder why the Chiefs are giving up anything for him. What you need to understand is that as much as they want what he brings on the field, what they are really bringing him here for is what he brings OFF the field. That is what makes him valuable to a ridiculously young, inexperienced Chiefs team.

And when he talks, those young guys will listen. His three rings ensure that. He will also help the coaches enforce their ways inside the locker room, and get the Chiefs players moving and operating in the right direction.

Though Pats fans knew his time was drawing near, we basically feel like there's been a death in teh family. Vrabel was universally loved and respected by Patriots fans, and we're very sad to see him go.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

He's hit on one or more almost every year. Tell me you would have won without the contributions of those players.

Wow. With one hand you giveth, and with the other you taketh away. He's great with late round picks, yet stupid about giving them away.

The answer is that you're wrong. Brady is a once in a lifetime. Koppen in the 5th and CAssell in the 7th. David Givens and Tully Banta-Cain in the 7th worked out ok, but once they went elsewhere they were shwon to be not all that special after all. Other than that, nobody who has been much more than a warm body comes to mind. I could be missing one, but that's 5 picks out of (yes, I counted) 38 picks in rounds 5-7. So maybe a 12% chance of getting someone who isn't just fodder.

Now we've given up another pick. We had 7 to start, presumably traded one of them for Vrabel, now we're using one to trade up to get a play we could have had if we just kept our pick.

err...what? You can trade from next year, or package some garbage late round picks to move up. What is with this unholy fascination with late round picks?

And your team is already TOO YOUNG. Do you not get that part? You need guys who understand how to win in the NFL to show some of these guys hwo to do it.

Who's he gonna teach to play linebacker?

Derrick Johnson, who's probably not going to be re-signed?

Demorrio Williams, who's also likely to be told to walk once his deal is up?

He's a rental, and it's pretty likely with a roster this shallow that half of the players he's "mentoring" this year aren't going to be on the roster next year.

He's not just teaching linebackers. TG is worth more off the field than just to the other two TEs on your squad...

He was great for you guys, he fit the system. Part of that system is being smart enough to know when to cut a guy loose because he's got nothing left to give. I think Belichick is ****ing brilliant for getting anything for a guy that isn't an every-down player, who wouldn't have been on the team in 2010.

I agree, for now. Ask me again in November if one of our OLBs goes downs. Depth in August isn't the same as depth in November/December.

[FAX]

Originally Posted by el borracho

I don't care what kind of a tutor/role model Vrabel may be, that is what coaches are for. I'm ****ing pissed that we traded for an old man. Even if it was a 7th round pick, it was too much. This trade sucks ass.

One of the few times (or only time, as I think about it) I must disagree with you, Mr. el borracho. Vrabel makes sense. Things have to change in the locker room and on the practice field as much as they need to change on the field of play.

I'm certain that Pioli knows that Vrabel is a dead linebacker walking. Therefore, his rationale for the trade has to be related to Vrabel's ability to translate the coaching staff's demands down to the player level. In a situation like ours, to have a trusted, experienced, proven player in that role is extremely valuable.

When you think about it, we don't have anyone like that. All we have are guys who have been part of a team that hasn't won much of anything except the adoration of the fans.

I remain confident in Pioli's decision-making.

FAX

[Amnorix]

Just to establish that you need to get a bit more of a grip, here's the history fo Patriots drafts under BB/SP

And note how often the PATRIOTS trade late round picks for NFL players.

2008 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
1	7	To New Orleans
1	10	Jerod Mayo	LB	Tennessee	From New Orleans, along with a 3rd (78), for a 1st (7) and a 5th (164)
2	62	Terrence Wheatley	CB	Colorado
3	69	To San Diego
3	78	Shawn Crable	LB	Michigan	From New Orleans (see above)
3	94	Kevin O'Connell	QB	San Diego State
4	129	Jonathan Wilhite	CB	Auburn
5	153	Matt Slater	WR	UCLA	From Tampa Bay for a 5th (160) and a 7th (238)
5	160	To Tampa Bay
5	164	To New Orleans
6	197	Bo Ruud	LB	Nebraska
7	238	To Tampa Bay

[Amnorix]

2007 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
1	24	Brandon Meriweather	S	Miami (Fla.)	From Seattle for WR Deion Branch
2	To Miami as part of trade for WR Wes Welker
4	To Oakland in exchange for WR Randy Moss
4	127	Kareem Brown	DL	Miami (Fla.)
5	171	Clint Oldenburg	OL	Colorado State	Compensatory pick
6	180	Justin Rogers	LB	SMU	From Arizona for T Brandon Gorin
6	202	Mike Richardson	CB	Notre Dame
6	208	Justise Hairston	RB	Central Conn.	Compensatory pick
6	209	Corey Hilliard	T	Oklahoma State	Compensatory pick
7	211	Oscar Lua	LB	Southern Cal	From Oakland, along with a 3rd in 2008, for a 3rd (91)
7	To Miami as part of trade for WR Wes Welker
7	247	Mike Elgin	C	Iowa	Compensatory pick

2006 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
1	21	Laurence Maroney	RB	Minnesota
2	36	Chad Jackson	WR	Florida	From Green Bay for a 2nd (52) and a 3rd (75)
3	86	Dave Thomas	TE	Texas
4	106	Garrett Mills	FB	Tulsa	From Detroit for a 5th (145) in 2005 and a 6th (206) in 2005
4	118	Stephen Gostkowski	K	Memphis
5	136	Ryan O'Callaghan	T	California	From Oakland, along with a 7th (230) in 2005, for a 6th (175) in 2005
6	191	Jeremy Mincey	LB	Florida
6	205	Dan Stevenson	G	Notre Dame	Compensatory pick
6	206	Le Kevin Smith	DL	Nebraska	Compensatory pick
7	229	Willie Andrews	DB	Baylor

[Amnorix]

2005 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
1	32	Logan Mankins	G	Fresno State
3	84	Ellis Hobbs	CB	Iowa State	From Baltimore, along with a 6th (195) in 2005 and a 3rd in 2006, for a 2nd (64)
3	To Arizona as part of trade for CB Duane Starks
3	100	Kick Kaczur	T	Toledo	Compensatory pick
4	133	James Sanders	S	Fresno State
5	To Arizona as part of trade for CB Duane Starks
5	170	Ryan Claridge	LB	Nevada-LV	Compensatory pick
7	230	Matt Cassel	QB	USC	From Oakland, along with a 5th (136) in 2006, for a 6th (175, from Green Bay)
7	255	Andy Stokes	TE	William Penn	Compensatory pick

[Amnorix]

2004 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
1	21	Vince Wilfork	DT	Miami (Fla.)	From Baltimore, along with a 2nd (41) in 2003, for a 1st (19) in 2003
1	32	Benjamin Watson	TE	Georgia
2	To Cincinnati in exchange for RB Corey Dillon
2	63	Marquise Hill	DE	LSU
3	95	Guss Scott	S	Florida
4	113	Dexter Reid	S	No. Carolina	From New Orleans, along with a 3rd (78) in 2003 and a 7th (239) in 2003, for S Tebucky Jones
4	128	Cedric Cobbs	RB	Arkansas
5	164	P.K. Sam	WR	Florida State
6	To Pittsburgh in compensation for RFA Rodney Bailey
7	233	Christian Morton	CB	Illinois

2003 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
1	13	Ty Warren	DL	Texas A&M	From Chicago for a 1st (14) and 6th (193)
2	36	Eugene Wilson	DB	Illinois	From Houston, along with a 4th (117), for a 2nd (41) and 3rd (75)
2	45	Bethel Johnson	WR	Texas A&M	From Carolina for a 2nd (50) and 4th (120)
4	117	Dan Klecko	DT	Temple	From Houston, along with a 2nd (36), for a 2nd (41) and 3rd (75)
4	120	Asante Samuel	CB	Central Florida	From Denver for a 4th (128) and 5th (157)
5	164	Dan Koppen	C	Boston College	From Tennessee, along with a 6th (201) and 7th (243), for a 5th (154) and 7th (225)
6	201	Kliff Kingsbury	QB	Texas Tech	From Tennessee, along with a 5th (164) and 7th (243), for a 5th (154) and 7th (225)
7	234	Spencer Nead	TE	BYU
7	239	Tully Banta-Cain	LB	California	From New Orleans, along with a 3rd (78) in 2003 and a 4th in 2004, for Tebucky Jones
7	243	Ethan Kelley	NT	Baylor	From Tennessee, along with a 5th (164) and 6th (201), for a 5th (154) and 7th (225)

[Amnorix]

2002 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
1	21	Daniel Graham	TE	Colorado	From Washington for a 1st (32), 3rd (96) and a 7th (234)
2	65	Deion Branch	WR	Louisville
4	117	Rohan Davey	QB	LSU	From Denver for a 4th (131) and a 5th (144)
4	126	Jarvis Green	DL	LSU	From Green Bay for WR Terry Glenn
7	237	Antwoine Womack	RB	Virginia	From Dallas, along with a 5th in 2003, for a 5th (168)
7	253	David Givens	WR	Notre Dame

2001 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
1	6	Richard Seymour	DL	Georgia
2	48	Matt Light	T	Purdue	From Detroit for a 2nd (50, from Pittsburgh) and a 6th (173, from San Francisco)
3	86	Brock Williams	CB	Notre Dame	From Minnesota (NE trades a 3rd (69) to Minnesota for a 3rd (86) and a 4th (119))
4	96	Kenyatta Jones	T	South Florida	From San Diego (NE trades a 4th (112) and a 5th (139) to San Diego for a 4th (96))
4	119	Jabari Holloway	TE	Notre Dame	From Minnesota (see Round 3)
5	163	Hakim Akbar	S	Washington	Compensatory pick
6	180	Arther Love	TE	South Carolina State	From Detroit (NE trades a 5th (149) to Detroit for a 6th (180) and a 7th (216))
6	200	Leonard Myers	CB	Miami (Fla.)	Compensatory pick
7	216	Owen Pochman	K	Brigham Young	From Detroit (see Round 6)
7	239	T.J. Turner	LB	Michigan State	Compensatory pick

[Amnorix]

2000 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
1	To the NY Jets in compensation for Bill Belichick
2	46	Adrian Klemm	T	Hawaii
3	76	J.R. Redmond	RB	Arizona State
4	127	Greg Robinson-Randall	T	Michigan State	Compensatory pick
5	141	Dave Stachelski	TE	Boise State
5	161	Jeff Marriott	DE	Missouri	From St. Louis for DE Mike Jones
6	187	Antwan Harris	DB	Virginia
6	199	Tom Brady	QB	Michigan	Compensatory pick
6	201	David Nugent	DE	Purdue	Compensatory pick
7	To San Francisco from Philadelphia
7	226	Casey Tisdale	LB	New Mexico
7	239	Patrick Pass	FB	Georgia	Compensatory pick

[HemiEd]

Originally Posted by rad

I don't think he has a choice.

Besides, I don't believe he's a "me first" kind of player.

For Vrabel to be the team leader, a couple vets will have to go, maybe more. Waters, Gonzalez at least.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Just to establish that you need to get a bit more of a grip, here's the history fo Patriots drafts under BB/SP

And note how often the PATRIOTS trade late round picks for NFL players.

Which is a great plan when you have a hole here and there to fill, or need someone in a complementary role, or as a special teamer.

But when you've gone 6-26 over the last two years and you can count the talented players you have on both hands, you need all the draft picks you can get.

If I've said it once, I've said it a million times:

I understand and value what he'll bring to the locker room NOW.

I'd have no problem with this had we signed him as a FA.

I just don't agree with the idea of a rebuilding team giving up picks for an aging, part-time player in his last year.

[Tipford]

I know this may be a stupid question to ask, but if the Chiefs are moving to the 3-4 defence as their base defence next year, what are they going to do with a player like Glenn Dorsey? Right now in my opinion, he is a player without a position to play of this team. He just doesn't have the body type to be asked to pack on the pounds and move into the nose tackle position. Tank Tyler is hugely more suited to pack on the pounds and move into the space eating nose tackle to keep the opposing offensive line off the linebackers in a 3-4 scheme. We might as well try trading Dorsey at this point to a team like Tennessee, since they are looking for a replacement for Haynesworth.

[Ultra Peanut]

Veteran leadership is nice, and all, but you have to have some talent in place before it can be led.

If it's a 7th rounder, whatever, but the overall shift in scheme and the lost opportunity to try to get a player capable of being around for more than two years is pretty disheartening if it's much more than that.

Originally Posted by Amnorix

He is, of course, on the downside of his career. Last year there was a very noticeable dropoff in his ability to make impact plays. Whereas in years gone by he stood out on the field for making key plays, last year he wasn't very noticeable. That's good in that you didn't often look at him as having screwed something up, but it's bad in that he wasn't making the strip-sacks that had earned him the love of Patriots fans.

He's a shell of his former self! I'm so excited!

Originally Posted by Tipford

I know this may be a stupid question to ask, but if the Chiefs are moving to the 3-4 defence as their base defence next year, what are they going to do with a player like Glenn Dorsey?

Flush him down the toilet.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by Ultra Peanut

Veteran leadership is nice, and all, but you have to have some talent in place before it can be led.

Exactly.

[Amnorix]

"It's still the guy with the most war stories who has the most impact and influence and has the power to set the tone."

"I think one of the lessons Belichick learned when he was coaching in Celveland was that the big-name players don't always make the best fit. . . . The players who were signed before the start of the 2001 season were all players brought here for specific reasons -- some for specialized skills, others for leadership, still otehrs fro a winning kind of attitude, but all because we were putting together a team, and tehse were some of the elements that were missing."

"Some examples: We acquired Bryan Cox, a veteran linebacker with talent but also a guy who brings an X-factor we needed for attitude. . . . He also brought in Anthony Pleasant, a defensive end he had drafted originally in Cleveland and a player he knew very well, one who would give us some veteran leadership on the defnsive line."

As coaches, we definitely felt we had substantially upgraded the team from where it had been in 2000. We didn't come in saying we had one of the most talented teams int he league, but Coach Belichick made sure all of us knew that we would have a team that was extremely strong mentally."

"After the workouts the players would talk to the coaches about responsibilities and also become use to the verbiage that we would be using. It was all preparation for the season and these guys wanted to do it. All it takes is a couple fo leaders to show the way. If one player told the others, 'Hey, I had a great meeting with Pepper', the next thing I knew there were three or four guys in my office."

Won for All by Pepper Johnson with Bill Gutman.

Pepper is currently the Pats, err, TE coach I think. He was DL coach for a stretch, and was with Belichick as a player with the Giants and Browns.

[RustShack]

Maybe the Chiefs will run some crazy ass hybrid that the NFL has never seen.