Illegal Immigration: What should we do?

[Mr. Kotter]

MODS: I'm interested in finding out what CP members think about this issue, and while I understand it's an issue ripe for political discussion.....I'd ask for it to remain in the Lounge for a couple of days, if at all possible, before moving it to its inevitable death in DC.

Fellow ChiefsPlanet posters: Can we try to have a reasonable discussion over this issue without it becoming too heated and denigrating into purely partisan demagoguery or racist insults? Please?

FWIW, I'm following the debate over immigration legislation somewhat closely, and I'm trying to figure out what the middle ground--if there is any--on the issue might be.

Thanks in advance for you opinions and posts.

Poll to follow, shortly....

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by Katipan

**** cheap construction, I'd better still get cheap manicures.

Yeah, your boyfriend hired American construction for his new deck. Heh.

Don't know how "cheap" Phil was/is though....

OTOH, Phil seems chummy with TJ, and that goatee....there may be some Hispanic bloodlines there.....

[Rausch]

First, if you're here illegaly you ARE a criminal. You broke the law.

Second, you ARE taking American jobs. Just because those jobs are shitty jobs doesn't mean they quit being American jobs. They are in America, they have a job, THAT'S A ****ING AMERICAN JOB.

Stupid/lazy/unfortunate Americans have to work too.

And don't give me the BS argument that the economy will crumble. Guess what? Last time we took advantage of an ethnicity for economic gain the people who did it said the economy would crumble if we quit ****ing them over for our benefit.

I think we're doing ok.

[Luzap]

Originally Posted by Donger

Last time I checked, we haven't invaded Mexico in some time. And, those Vietnamese decided and made a concerted effort to assimilate. I know; my brother is married to one. And, I don't hear a "For Vietnamese, press three" option when I call my bank.

I'm not against importing any culture. Hell, our 'culture' is by definition multi-cultural. But, I draw the line at being illegal. Again, they had a choice: they choose to break the law. fuck them.

Donger,

Your 'let's be tough' attitude is what props up the underground. Dependence on the underground is what keeps many Latinos from assimilating. Non-assimilation is why bussinesses are catering to Spanish speaking people.

This is what I meant by a complicated situation.

If we change our idiotic laws about immigration, you won't need to guard the boarders so closely. Building a wall is a doomed proposition.

Also, you say they had a choice. Many of them don't feel that they did. If you had it within your power to give your daughter a life as retail store manager, or as a prostitute, which would you 'choose'?

Luz
you cannot over simplify this...

[Rausch]

Originally Posted by Luzap

Donger,

Your 'let's be tough' attitude is what props up the underground. Dependence on the underground is what keeps many Latinos from assimilating. Non-assimilation is why bussinesses are catering to Spanish speaking people.

You could say the same thing for terrorism.

Should we quit arresting people who want to s'plode us in the hopes they'll be less agitated?

Originally Posted by Luzap

This is what I meant by a complicated situation.

It's complicated be the rich in this country have found a way to bring back endentured servitude, laughing to the bank for decades now.

Originally Posted by Luzap

If we change our idiotic laws about immigration, you won't need to guard the boarders so closely. Building a wall is a doomed proposition..

No it isn't. Not only would it create jobs for those with few skills who DIDN'T break the law to come here it protects the nation.

Plus, it saves mexican lives.

Originally Posted by Luzap

Also, you say they had a choice. Many of them don't feel that they did. If you had it within your power to give your daughter a life as retail store manager, or as a prostitute, which would you 'choose'?

If Russians and Eastern Europeans can come to the midwest by the truckloads, legally, don't act like it's impossible for Mexican immigrants. It's not.

[Luzap]

Originally Posted by Rausch

You could say the same thing for terrorism.

Should we quit arresting people who want to s'plode us in the hopes they'll be less agitated?

It's complicated be the rich in this country have found a way to bring back endentured servitude, laughing to the bank for decades now.

No it isn't. Not only would it create jobs for those with few skills who DIDN'T break the law to come here it protects the nation.

Plus, it saves mexican lives.

If Russians and Eastern Europeans can come to the midwest by the truckloads, legally, don't act like it's impossible for Mexican immigrants. It's not.

Raush,

I've always liked your posts, but some of what you're saying here is just plain silly. Saying the same argument applies to terrorists? come on...

I have no vested interest in trying to convince you or anyone else, but you seem very closed on this issue.

Luz
maybe an employer that has lived in and traveled extensively through Latin American countries couldn't know as much about the subject as you do...

[Rausch]

Originally Posted by Luzap

Raush,

I've always liked your posts, but some of what you're saying here is just plain silly. Saying the same argument applies to terrorists? come on...

It's a crime. Period.

Name any other crime: speeding, smoking pot, theft under $50.

Is it smart to decriminalize any of those just because hundreds of thousands doi it?

Of course not, and this argument for illegal immigration is just as silly.

Originally Posted by Luzap

I have no vested interest in trying to convince you or anyone else, but you seem very closed on this issue.

Luz
maybe an employer that has lived in and traveled extensively through Latin American countries couldn't know as much about the subject as you do...

I don't see how being in latin America has anything to do with the situation.

Mexico is a shitty place to live. Granted, I wouldn't want to be there either. But so is China, and we can't let in 3 bazillion chinese because they have it rough.

I'm all for opening schools in Mexico, on THEIR side of the border to teach english and give LEGAL immigrants a legitimate chance. We should encourage legal immigration. We should make it easier to immigrate.

The main argument for illegal immigration is greed, plain and simple. Employers who want cheap wages to keep prices and wages down to keep profits up. That's it. Greed.

Keep the immigrants who enter stupid and uneducated (read: illegal) so they have to work for low wages and take what they can get. As long as there's a fear factor they won't complain about working conditions or pay.

Opportunity should not be stolen in this country, it should be earned.

Have we learned nothing from our first run with taking advantage of an ethnicity for economic benefit?

What happens when millions of illegals get fed up with getting hosed? What happens when they get pissed watching white high school kids make more at McD's while they work their azzes off?

What happens when 1/2 a million illegals march, pissed off, and it's not peaceful?...

[Lbedrock1]

This is how I feel. Everyone, not just people from Mexico, should be deported. If you want to be in this country you should enter legally. If we can let this pass then why do we have laws. We should not change a law because people are breaking it. I understand what they must be going through over there in mexico, but a lot of people have died so that we can have the freedoms we have so the mexicans need to overturn thier government and create one that is more friendly to their people. Its time for them to fight and be willing to die for a better country not take advantage what another country has fought for. I say close the borders and make anyone entering the country go through the proper channels. Mexico will be the door to our next attack on America if we dont get a handle on this issue.

[Wichita Lineman]

I think it's simple but then again I'm old and simple. Just do what you'd do if any other law was broken. Enforce the law. That's for those that cross the border, those that are here, and those that hire them. Just enforce the law.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Rausch

The main argument for illegal immigration is greed, plain and simple. Employers who want cheap wages to keep prices and wages down to keep profits up. That's it. Greed.

Yea, I'm sure the consumer doesn't have any say in that. They'd much rather pay more for a service provided by legals, right? The reason this has gone on at the level it has is because people are too busy reaping the rewards of this cheap labor to be legitimately outraged by it.

No offense, but you're ingnorant on the subject, and your redass act doesn't add much to this thread.

[Inspector]

Are there any other laws that might be changed to make the activity legal?

Just wondering if I can break some laws and have it be OK.

And if so, which ones. The immigration stuff doesn't do me any good.

What laws can I break and have it be ok? I want in on this action too.

[MahiMike]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

Shouldn't we "legalize" the current system then?

No. I mean literally do nothing. The reason it works so well right now is because these guys don't have SSNs. They don't actually exist to the gov't so they automatically earn 18% more than their US counterpart. And the company hiring them doesn't have to pay as much overhead so everyone wins. ESPECIALLY the end consumer (US).

Look. Every dime these guys make goes right back into our economy. They pay cash for everything so they need no credit and you can always count on them to pay or risk being deported.

A week ago this wasn't even an issue to most Americans. And it still shouldn't be. We actually have a system in place that works so naturally the Govt wants to change it.

Just leave it alone and DO NOTHING.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by MahiMike

Look. Every dime these guys make goes right back into our economy. They pay cash for everything so they need no credit and you can always count on them to pay or risk being deported.

That's not even close to true. The key reason Presidente Fox refuses to even acknowledge that it's illegal for Mexicans to sneak into America is that these people send millions of dollars back to Mexico. It's a huge boon to their economy.

Your post also ignores the burden they put on our tax pool. We're having to put ESL teachers in every school, so we can teach the children of people who don't pay the taxes that make the ESL teacher's salary. Not to mention medicare and other social welfare programs that they use but don't contribute to, the streets they drive on, the police time they consume, etc, etc.

[MahiMike]

Originally Posted by jspchief

That's not even close to true. The key reason Presidente Fox refuses to even acknowledge that it's illegal for Mexicans to sneak into America is that these people send millions of dollars back to Mexico. It's a huge boon to their economy.

Your post also ignores the burden they put on our tax pool. We're having to put ESL teachers in every school, so we can teach the children of people who don't pay the taxes that make the ESL teacher's salary. Not to mention medicare and other social welfare programs that they use but don't contribute to, the streets they drive on, the police time they consume, etc, etc.

Welcome to the wonderful world of globalization in 2006. In order to compete, we have to import illegal aliens. At least we can say it was MADE in America...

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by MahiMike

Welcome to the wonderful world of globalization in 2006. In order to compete, we have to import illegal aliens. At least we can say it was MADE in America...

I disagree that have to import illegals. We may need to import laborers, but I don't agree that it they have to be illegals.

We may also need to keep them on visas so they don't get so comfortable with American life that they begin to demand more money. The reason these people work for cheap isn't about fear like so many people think. It's because $5 per hour is ten times what they were earning in Mexico. Work visas and a fresh rotation might keep them from getting too comfortable with American wages. The threat of going back home to $20 per week, will keep them grateful.

[Donger]

Originally Posted by Luzap

Donger,

Your 'let's be tough' attitude is what props up the underground. Dependence on the underground is what keeps many Latinos from assimilating. Non-assimilation is why bussinesses are catering to Spanish speaking people.

Do you have any evidence of this being the reason for their not assimlilating, or is it merely your opinion?

Originally Posted by Luzap

If we change our idiotic laws about immigration, you won't need to guard the boarders so closely. Building a wall is a doomed proposition.

What are you suggesting?

Originally Posted by Luzap

Also, you say they had a choice. Many of them don't feel that they did. If you had it within your power to give your daughter a life as retail store manager, or as a prostitute, which would you 'choose'?

Thankfully, my parents chose to immigrate legally. There IS an available method to gain entry to this country legally. They choose not to.

Luz
you cannot over simplify this...[/QUOTE]