The MLB lockout thread

[Deberg_1990]

Discussssss

To our Fans:

I first want to thank you for your continued support of the great game of baseball. This past season, we were reminded of how the national pastime can bring us together and restore our hope despite the difficult challenges of a global pandemic. As we began to emerge from one of the darkest periods in our history, our ballparks were filled with fans; the games were filled with excitement; and millions of families felt the joy of watching baseball together.

That is why I am so disappointed about the situation in which our game finds itself today. Despite the league’s best efforts to make a deal with the Players Association, we were unable to extend our 26 year-long history of labor peace and come to an agreement with the MLBPA before the current CBA expired. Therefore, we have been forced to commence a lockout of Major League players, effective at 12:01am ET on December 2.

I want to explain to you how we got here and why we have to take this action today. Simply put, we believe that an offseason lockout is the best mechanism to protect the 2022 season. We hope that the lockout will jumpstart the negotiations and get us to an agreement that will allow the season to start on time. This defensive lockout was necessary because the Players Association’s vision for Major League Baseball would threaten the ability of most teams to be competitive. It’s simply not a viable option. From the beginning, the MLBPA has been unwilling to move from their starting position, compromise, or collaborate on solutions.

When we began negotiations over a new agreement, the Players Association already had a contract that they wouldn’t trade for any other in sports. Baseball’s players have no salary cap and are not subjected to a maximum length or dollar amount on contracts. In fact, only MLB has guaranteed contracts that run 10 or more years, and in excess of $300 million. We have not proposed anything that would change these fundamentals. While we have heard repeatedly that free agency is “broken” – in the month of November $1.7 billion was committed to free agents, smashing the prior record by nearly 4x. By the end of the offseason, Clubs will have committed more money to players than in any offseason in MLB history.

We worked hard to find compromise while making the system even better for players, by addressing concerns raised by the Players Association. We offered to establish a minimum payroll for all clubs to meet for the first time in baseball history; to allow the majority of players to reach free agency earlier through an age-based system that would eliminate any claims of service time manipulation; and to increase compensation for all young players, including increases in the minimum salary. When negotiations lacked momentum, we tried to create some by offering to accept the universal Designated Hitter, to create a new draft system using a lottery similar to other leagues, and to increase the Competitive Balance Tax threshold that affects only a small number of teams.

We have had challenges before with respect to making labor agreements and have overcome those challenges every single time during my tenure. Regrettably, it appears the Players Association came to the bargaining table with a strategy of confrontation over compromise. They never wavered from collectively the most extreme set of proposals in their history, including significant cuts to the revenue-sharing system, a weakening of the competitive balance tax, and shortening the period of time that players play for their teams. All of these changes would make our game less competitive, not more.

To be clear: this hard but important step does not necessarily mean games will be cancelled. In fact, we are taking this step now because it accelerates the urgency for an agreement with as much runway as possible to avoid doing damage to the 2022 season. Delaying this process further would only put Spring Training, Opening Day, and the rest of the season further at risk – and we cannot allow an expired agreement to again cause an in-season strike and a missed World Series, like we experienced in 1994. We all owe you, our fans, better than that.

Today is a difficult day for baseball, but as I have said all year, there is a path to a fair agreement, and we will find it. I do not doubt the League and the Players share a fundamental appreciation for this game and a commitment to its fans. I remain optimistic that both sides will seize the opportunity to work together to grow, protect, and strengthen the game we love. MLB is ready to work around the clock to meet that goal. I urge the Players Association to join us at the table.
Manfred

Read a letter from the Commissioner: https://t.co/P4gRGSlfsu pic.twitter.com/zI40uGLTni

— MLB (@MLB) December 2, 2021

Statement from the Major League Baseball Players Association: pic.twitter.com/34uIGf762W

— MLBPA Communications (@MLBPA_News) December 2, 2021

[Deberg_1990]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

This is 100% correct.

As I noted, you have to have played it to have any appreciation for it at all. And again, youth participation rates in soccer are at best stagnant over the last 15 years or so. It leveled out and is actually well down from the mid-90s boom that yielded...nothing.

I'm not saying it isn't incredibly difficult. I'm saying that it doesn't translate to the layperson and I don't see any spike in youth participation on the horizon or some massive wave of converts to the sport.

Yea. Your probably right. Honestly very tough for soccer to grab a foothold in the US because we have such a wide variety of sports and extracurriculars.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Deberg_1990

Yea. Your probably right. Honestly very tough for soccer to grab a foothold in the US because we have such a wide variety of sports and extracurriculars.

Soccer has a basketball trap in it.

As I said previously - the higher the level, the less exciting it can get. Look at a soccer player just out and about with a ball. Look at the footwork they can display and the juggling, ball placement, etc...

NONE of that happens in high level matches because it just doesn't work. Kick, chase, pass, setup, defend. Oh sure, you'll see a few little step over moves here and there, but the level of play is so high that those 'tricks' that these guys are capable of just get destroyed.

NBA is the same way. These guys are unbelievable. All of them. Even a big dumb oaf like Dwight Howard can do shit with a basketball that's incredible. And he can sink open 12 footers in a practice gym all day. But in the game, these guys are all so big and so athletic that if you try any of that Jayson Williams white chocolate shit, you'll get picked clean and look like a moron. That's why a lot of people prefer college ball - it's full of far lesser players but the style is typically more enjoyable.

In many ways, the higher the level, the less exciting the play for both soccer and basketball.

That's why it can't catch hold here. If the caliber of player in the MLS improves, the entertainment value of the product will decline for all those that aren't hardcore fans. And unlike basketball with the small courts and constant action, a lot of soccer is played at midfield where you're just kinda waiting for an announcer to raise his voice to alert you to the fact that something might be going on.

[Chiefspants]

My wife played soccer her entire life. Played for one of the best public high schools in Kansas, and placed in state each year.

The issue for her (and her teammates) was that in order to compete at a high level and climb the ladder in the sport, you needed to commit to a traveling league and commit to playing year round - something her parents (and the parents at the public school) were typically unable to do because of geographical and cost barriers -- a problem even more pronounced for rural kids playing the game.

My wife, for fun, participated in an event in high school with other aspiring players who wanted to play in college. She said the gap between her and the students who played in year-long, traveling leagues, felt like the gap between her (a sophomore who played all her life) and a 5th grader. The year-round kids were in an entire other stratosphere. This was a really alienating process for a lot of her teammates and a few of her teammates actually lost interest in the game (when it was supposed to do the opposite) and many students ended up focusing on sports that had more upward mobility through the resources they had available at the high school. For soccer, universities really only had interest in the year-round players - and that barrier was obvious to anyone at that event.

My wife still played in club soccer all of college and her club team did well -- but the gap between club and the University Soccer Team was always that pronounced, and club, unlike the University teams (where students got scholarships), rarely got that support.

[Deberg_1990]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Soccer has a basketball trap in it.

As I said previously - the higher the level, the less exciting it can get. Look at a soccer player just out and about with a ball. Look at the footwork they can display and the juggling, ball placement, etc...

NONE of that happens in high level matches because it just doesn't work. Kick, chase, pass, setup, defend. Oh sure, you'll see a few little step over moves here and there, but the level of play is so high that those 'tricks' that these guys are capable of just get destroyed.

NBA is the same way. These guys are unbelievable. All of them. Even a big dumb oaf like Dwight Howard can do shit with a basketball that's incredible. And he can sink open 12 footers in a practice gym all day. But in the game, these guys are all so big and so athletic that if you try any of that Jayson Williams white chocolate shit, you'll get picked clean and look like a moron. That's why a lot of people prefer college ball - it's full of far lesser players but the style is typically more enjoyable.

In many ways, the higher the level, the less exciting the play for both soccer and basketball.

That's why it can't catch hold here. If the caliber of player in the MLS improves, the entertainment value of the product will decline for all those that aren't hardcore fans. And unlike basketball with the small courts and constant action, a lot of soccer is played at midfield where you're just kinda waiting for an announcer to raise his voice to alert you to the fact that something might be going on.

I would agree with this. And yes, Americans demand action and offense in their sports.

[Vladimir_Kyrilytch]

Originally Posted by KC_Lee

Dear MLB & MLB Players Association,

From a someone that has not watched a second of baseball since 1994 with the exception of the Royals' runs in 2014 & 2015 I say **** YOU ALL!

As a lifelong Angel fan that considers 2014 to be unspeakably painful, right back at ya. Meet me by the adalberto mondesi statue over in left field and we will discuss further.

[ChiefsCountry]

Originally Posted by Chiefspants

My wife played soccer her entire life. Played for one of the best public high schools in Kansas, and placed in state each year.

The issue for her (and her teammates) was that in order to compete at a high level and climb the ladder in the sport, you needed to commit to a traveling league and commit to playing year round - something her parents (and the parents at the public school) were unwilling/unable to do.

My wife, for fun, participated in an event in high school with other aspiring players who wanted to play in college. She said the gap between her and the students who played in year-long, traveling leagues, felt like the gap between her (a sophomore who played all her life) and a 5th grader. They were in an entire other stratosphere. This was a really alienating process for a lot of her teammates and a lot of her teammates actually lost interest in the game (when it was supposed to do the opposite). Universities really only had interest in the year-round players - and that barrier was obvious to anyone at that event.

My wife still played in club soccer all of college and her club team did well -- but the gap between club and the University Soccer Team was always that pronounced, and club, unlike the University teams (where students get scholarships), club teams typically get that support.

My little cousin plays D1 soccer. She was on traveling club teams since she was an elementary. Thankfully our family could afford the travel and time. She played all over the US and even went overseas to play.

[Chiefspants]

Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry

My little cousin plays D1 soccer. She was on traveling club teams since she was an elementary. Thankfully our family could afford the travel and time. She played all over the US and even went overseas to play.

It's amazing what a golden ticket opportunity that can be. It's amazing to see their effect especially with the right coaches and team dynamic. I have a few students who do that for hockey and it's incredible watching their leaps in talent from 6th-8th grade.

[DJ's left nut]

Yeah, I worry about that a lot with gymnastics and baseball. For right now we're only going around Missouri but shit, that started in gymnastics when she was 6.

I played on a few traveling baseball teams as a kid but not enough of them. Part of it was just that I wasn't a great player and didn't really want to go to Texas to be a utility infielder and part-time catcher and maybe get 2 starts and 8-10 ABs over 4 days. I wasn't starting at a super-high level as it was.

But once my teammates started going to 2-3 times as many of those events as I did, they just tore away from me. By my last season I couldn't get on the field at all. And I was at least good enough to play on some traveling squads until my teens. That made me as good/better than 80% of the guys I was typically playing against (especially defensively). In 3 years I went from the no-doubt starting SS to a mopup player.

And that was in the mid 90s. It's orders of magnitude worse now. We weren't looking at traveling until 11-12 yrs old. They have 8-9 yr old traveling squads now. Shit, we were just happy throwing strikes at that age. Worse, many HS coaches have traveling teams they organize and if you're not on that team, it's damn near impossible to get any attention at the HS level unless you're just clearly better than everyone. If you're just a good player, that kid that traveled with your coach all season is gonna get more opportunity than you will.

But hell man, it's no better in basketball or football. All the organized sports have gone haywire in that regard. At least in Hockey you've gotta spend a billion dollars in year 1 so you kinda understand what you're getting into...

[ChiefsCountry]

Originally Posted by Chiefspants

It's amazing what a golden ticket opportunities like that can be. It's amazing to see their effect especially with the right coaches and team dynamic. I have a few students who do that for hockey and it's incredible watching their leaps in talent from 6th-8th grade.

Crazy thing about her was on her high school team she was that man among boys or whatever analogy you want to use for girl's sports. But she would just kind of toy with high school play. She let her high school teammates do their thing and she would just take over when needed. Mainly bc she knew that the travel ball was her ticket.

[Chiefspants]

That's a good point, I guess I've seen enough students in the tiny town I teach in get football scholarships in local colleges (non-D1) that it seems a bit more attainable than soccer and baseball -- but it's possible that's an anecdotal take on my end that isn't supported by data.

[ChiefsCountry]

Originally Posted by Chiefspants

That's a good point, I guess I've seen enough students in the tiny town I teach in get football scholarships in local colleges (non-D1) that it seems a [i]bit[i/] more attainable than soccer and baseball -- but it's possible that's an anecdotal take on my end that isn't supported by data.

Well football scholarship is way more attainable because of the sheer roster sizes and physical bodies are of all sizes in football.

[Vladimir_Kyrilytch]

Originally Posted by Mama Hip Rockets

Tons of people on this board watch the Royals pretty much every day. I'd assume that's true of the Cardinals as well. WTF are you talking about?

Theres even one guy here that bets on baseball so much that he has to file a special form on his taxes. Schedule C.

[Vladimir_Kyrilytch]

Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry

Well football scholarship is way more attainable because of the sheer roster sizes and physical bodies are of all sizes in football.

Are you seriously going to make the argument that football players can be any shape and size but baseball players need size to succeed?

David Eckstein must be a myth to you.

I was constantly undersized for my age playing youth sports. I found myself in a batters box a few times nonetheless. Know where I never found myself? On a D-Line.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Evergreen response.

Soccer was going to be the next big thing in America as far back as 1988 when the '94 cup was awarded to the US.

A) The US is just too wealthy. The appeal of soccer in most other major nations is that it requires a ball and some grass to play. So in the 3rd world, everyone plays it.

B) If you don't play it, you don't get it. You don't appreciate the skill involved. You can have never played football or basketball or hockey or even baseball in your life and recognize how difficult it is. Soccer just looks like guys kicking and chasing a ball around and seemingly without a plan. Offsides doesn't make sense to you, the strategies involved aren't readily apparent, there's seemingly little action apart from repetitive back and forth. Hell, the sheer number of leagues/cups/divisions, etc... involved makes interest in the international game hard to build.

And as big a problem is that the higher the level of play, the less interesting the games become. As the MLS gets better, the scores are likely to actually go down and there's likely to be less action because teams will tighten up a bit.

Soccer's just unlikely to gain a foothold here because there are simply more entertaining things to play if you have the resources to do so. My kids all play soccer because they get to run and kick things but my oldest prefers basketball and gymnastics now. My youngest son wants to play baseball and football and my youngest daughter wants to do dance and gymnastics as well. Soccer is a placeholder for them while they don't have attention spans.

I'll take 'em out there for as long as they keep asking to play because it burns off energy and nobody asks me to coach it, but I don't expect it to be something they're interested in for too much longer.

Originally Posted by Deberg_1990

My son is 16 and plays soccer at the club/competitive level. He has made me truly come to appreciate it. It’s not easy at all. Sure, anyone can get out on a field and kick a ball. But the balls skills, body skills, strategy and conditioning to be able to be truly good is unreal. Most people don’t have a true appreciation for what it takes to play soccer at a high level. They just see guys/girls kicking a ball around.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

This is 100% correct.

As I noted, you have to have played it to have any appreciation for it at all. And again, youth participation rates in soccer are at best stagnant over the last 15 years or so. It leveled out and is actually well down from the mid-90s boom that yielded...nothing.

I'm not saying it isn't incredibly difficult. I'm saying that it doesn't translate to the layperson and I don't see any spike in youth participation on the horizon or some massive wave of converts to the sport.

I agree on all the points here. Soccer as a major sport overtaking the top 3 isn't happening in our lifetimes. I didn't understand why at the elite level they cant pass the ball to their teammate on the run and hit them in stride. Seems like a basic skill.

Cant play the outfield unless you can make a thrown into a base correctly. Can't play hockey unless you can pass the puck to a streaking teammate. Cant play QB unless you can throw to a spot on the field where your teammate will be eventually. Cant make passes in traffic in BB, your not handling the ball. etc. etc. So even the elite soccer players cant do this, so it must be hard. Still don't understand why its so hard....

Still think the hardest skill to excel at the elite level against is hitting a round ball with a round bat.

[suzzer99]

Maybe because I grew up playing baseball, but hitting a golf ball straight with a driver feels 10x harder.