***Official 2020 STL Cardinals Thread***

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

How you guys feel about going DH from now on?

Pending MLB agreement reportedly includes DH in NL for both 2020 and 2021. Then comes new CBA which almost certainly will include it. So, NL is a DH league now.

— Tom (@Haudricourt) June 17, 2020

Pretty stoked to see a game that has become all about HRs and strikeouts add a fat guy who's not even coordinated enough to man 1b. Thank GOD we could find a home for Matt Carpenter.

This game has gotten so bad, so fast over the last 5 years that I just can't bring myself to give a shit. But/for a couple of dynasty teams I've had for 10 and 20 years respectively, I'd probably walk away from the game altogether.

Its objectively boring at this point. There's little true action. Athleticism is not rewarded on a large enough scale to be sought after anymore, nor is craft.

It's all about throwing hard and swinging harder. This style of game is undeniably efficient but it's aesthetically trash. And when you take away one more element that requires thought and execution and replace it with just another dude that swings hard....ugh.

[VAChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Pretty stoked to see a game that has become all about HRs and strikeouts add a fat guy who's not even coordinated enough to man 1b. Thank GOD we could find a home for Matt Carpenter.

This game has gotten so bad, so fast over the last 5 years that I just can't bring myself to give a shit. But/for a couple of dynasty teams I've had for 10 and 20 years respectively, I'd probably walk away from the game altogether.

Its objectively boring at this point. There's little true action. Athleticism is not rewarded on a large enough scale to be sought after anymore, nor is craft.

It's all about throwing hard and swinging harder. This style of game is undeniably efficient but it's aesthetically trash. And when you take away one more element that requires thought and execution and replace it with just another dude that swings hard....ugh.

Watched part of game 7 of the 1971 WS the other day between the Orioles and Pirates, it was startling to see the difference in what the game was and has become. The pitchers took better at bats in that game that what sometimes you see now.

Now some of what we know now is better as our statistical analysis has improved, but in general the game was quicker paced, balls were in play and amazingly there were still runs being scored.

Side note: Steve Blass pitched that game, looked like he had stuff that could still deal today...that was about a year and half removed from when he got the yips (ala Ankiel).

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by VAChief

Watched part of game 7 of the 1971 WS the other day between the Orioles and Pirates, it was startling to see the difference in what the game was and has become. The pitchers took better at bats in that game that what sometimes you see now.

Now some of what we know now is better as our statistical analysis has improved, but in general the game was quicker paced, balls were in play and amazingly there were still runs being scored.

Side note: Steve Blass pitched that game, looked like he had stuff that could still deal today...that was about a year and half removed from when he got the yips (ala Ankiel).

Can you imagine how much fun someone like Harrison Bader would be in the late 80s? Dude would've been Van Slyke but faster.

Instead he does nothing but lift, swings uphill, strikes out a ton, get pissed at people who question his breaking ball recognition and never learned how to run the bases nearly as well as his speed dictates he should.

So instead of Van Slyke he's on his way to being Laynce Nix. Fun.

[VAChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Can you imagine how much fun someone like Harrison Bader would be in the late 80s? Dude would've been Van Slyke but faster.

Instead he does nothing but lift, swings uphill, strikes out a ton, get pissed at people who question his breaking ball recognition and never learned how to run the bases nearly as well as his speed dictates he should.

So instead of Van Slyke he's on his way to being Laynce Nix. Fun.

Absolutely, but those late 80's teams were an example of the team approach greater than the individual parts. Speed as a weapon is diminished if those batting behind you aren't putting balls in play either. It wasn't just about stealing bases on those teams it was the runs they put together by taking at bats to advance runners. Just constantly putting pressure on teams to make plays. OPS and power numbers were nothing special on those teams with usually the singular exception of a Jack Clark, yet they scored runs.

[Miles]

Yeah that is bullshit.

[Miles]

Also it seems one of the worst outcomes of no 2020 season is it would push back a year of contract service for some of the slapstick’s this team has on terrible deals.

[Jewish Rabbi]

Originally Posted by Miles

Also it seems one of the worst outcomes of no 2020 season is it would push back a year of contract service for some of the slapstick’s this team has on terrible deals.

My understanding is the contracts age a year regardless of whether games are played or not.

[Miles]

Originally Posted by Jewish Rabbi

My understanding is the contracts age a year regardless of whether games are played or not.

Excellent. Didn’t realize that.

[BigRedChief]

WTF are they doing?

One thing that “the purists” are gonna hate:

The owners have proposed being able to sell commercial advertisements on uniforms for 2020 and 2021.

Again, it’s in the proposal, which as many have reported is not a done deal.

— Trevor Plouffe (@trevorplouffe) June 18, 2020

[Chief Roundup]

I am with you all. I am not a fan of the DH. It is what it is though. MLB much like the NFL realizes that most fans want to see scoring not defense and strategy. They are never going to move the fences out making for less home runs.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Chief Roundup

I am with you all. I am not a fan of the DH. It is what it is though. MLB much like the NFL realizes that most fans want to see scoring not defense and strategy. They are never going to move the fences out making for less home runs.

yeah, DJ makes a good case for it but He is on drugs if he thinks MLB will ever make it harder to hit home runs.

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by Chief Roundup

I am with you all. I am not a fan of the DH. It is what it is though. MLB much like the NFL realizes that most fans want to see scoring not defense and strategy. They are never going to move the fences out making for less home runs.

What strategy? I see NL fans talk about this all the time, but it just doesn't exist anymore. I always found the "strategy" argument to be overrated, and modern evolution of baseball has made it even more so.

My points:

1) The decisions on whether to let the pitcher hit should ALWAYS have been straightforward and an easy call 90 percent of the time. It isn't that difficult unless you're a stone-cold moron like Mike Matheny. Same thing with the double switch. If you have a working understanding of baseball, the calls weren't hard.

2) Teams realizing you shouldn't let 90 percent of SP face a lineup the 3rd time through has made the decision even easier/more automatic.

3) Pitchers have become so bad at hitting, watching them hit is like watching an athlete from another sport try to hit. It used to be that pitchers, on average, could approximate around 60 percent of the value of a regular everyday player. Not that bad. It's down to 35-40 percent.

4) Associated with teams not letting SP go into the 3rd time through the lineup, SP just don't go as deep as they used to go. If they're getting pulled after the 5th or 6th anyway, the "strategy" of the decision is taken away.

5) For all the "strategy" that comes around letting the pitcher hit in the 5th or 6th inning, you have the 2nd, 3rd, 4th... when pitchers kill lots of rallies and also take the bat out of the 8th place hitter's hand, as well.

6) The specialization of the bullpen and extreme focus on power arms and power stuff has made pinch hitting even more challenging. PH used to be able to come in and give a quality at-bat and maybe take advantage of a tiring SP. Now, they're coming in to face a flamethrower (and possibly a flamethrower who comes in specifically to have a hand-on-hand matchup advantage, though some ability to do this will be restricted by the 3-batter minimum).

[Chief Roundup]

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho

What strategy? I see NL fans talk about this all the time, but it just doesn't exist anymore. I always found the "strategy" argument to be overrated, and modern evolution of baseball has made it even more so.



My points:



1) The decisions on whether to let the pitcher hit should ALWAYS have been straightforward and an easy call 90 percent of the time. It isn't that difficult unless you're a stone-cold moron like Mike Matheny. Same thing with the double switch. If you have a working understanding of baseball, the calls weren't hard.



2) Teams realizing you shouldn't let 90 percent of SP face a lineup the 3rd time through has made the decision even easier/more automatic.



3) Pitchers have become so bad at hitting, watching them hit is like watching an athlete from another sport try to hit. It used to be that pitchers, on average, could approximate around 60 percent of the value of a regular everyday player. Not that bad. It's down to 35-40 percent.



4) Associated with teams not letting SP go into the 3rd time through the lineup, SP just don't go as deep as they used to go. If they're getting pulled after the 5th or 6th anyway, the "strategy" of the decision is taken away.



5) For all the "strategy" that comes around letting the pitcher hit in the 5th or 6th inning, you have the 2nd, 3rd, 4th... when pitchers kill lots of rallies and also take the bat out of the 8th place hitter's hand, as well.



6) The specialization of the bullpen and extreme focus on power arms and power stuff has made pinch hitting even more challenging. PH used to be able to come in and give a quality at-bat and maybe take advantage of a tiring SP. Now, they're coming in to face a flamethrower (and possibly a flamethrower who comes in specifically to have a hand-on-hand matchup advantage, though some ability to do this will be restricted by the 3-batter minimum).

Exactly what I was getting at there hasn't been strategy in the game in a long time.

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[Mecca]

The MLB doesn't grasp in today's world their game is the dinosaur, young people don't care about it.

[DJ's left nut]

Yeah - my answer saying is "well the game sucks now anyway so why not add the DH" is "hey, let's not play the slice here and instead try making the game NOT suck..."

Make the game something more than strikeouts, walks and HRs, and then one of two things happen - the difference is more stark when you have the pitchers hitting OR it isn't but the game is now entertaining enough that I wouldn't mind the addition of the DH to the NL.

But the game is so ****ing awful right now that taking away yet another small little element that makes it less stale just makes it worse. No, a pitcher shouldn't end up facing a lineup 3 times unless he's damn good. But sometimes he's gonna be up 1st in the order next time so you can either try to get him through that inning to PH for him the next inning and start with a clean pitcher to preserve your bullpen or 2, double-switch.

The 2 'no shit' strategic moves Duncan dismisses are STILL considerations and decisions that have to be made. And it doesn't happen every game, no, but it does happen quite often - enough to make a notable difference.

You have more bunts and attempts to snag an extra base here and there when you know your pitcher is coming up. Is it efficient? No - but it's still an added element. It's something more than "just add another guy to the lineup that hunts for walks and homers while accepting strikeouts..."

It's something ELSE and I just don't understand why AL fans think it's so damn important that people who prefer NL style of baseball accept that crap. You have your thing - you don't watch our thing anyway. Why must our vision dovetail with yours? Especially when AL fans are no more likely to like this plodding shit version of the game this has developed into.

It's a bizarre sort of tribalism. Unless you're an AL fan that likes the way the game is played now vs. the way it was played a quarter century ago, I don't see how you can make a good faith argument in favor of a DH. It's just another crank of the knob towards that style of play.