The MLB lockout thread

[2112]

It took a long time for baseball to recover from 1994. And both sides have not forgotten that. This will get settled before spring training.

[Ocotillo]

MLB owners meet Tuesday-Thursday in Orlando, where they will regroup. The union expectation is a new MLB offer will come soon, and presumably that happens after the owners convene. It’s obviously getting late with spring training originally scheduled to start 10 days from today.

— Jon Heyman (@JonHeyman) February 6, 2022

[Bronco_buster2]

Originally Posted by Ocotillo

MLB owners meet Tuesday-Thursday in Orlando, where they will regroup. The union expectation is a new MLB offer will come soon, and presumably that happens after the owners convene. It’s obviously getting late with spring training originally scheduled to start 10 days from today.

— Jon Heyman (@JonHeyman) February 6, 2022

I had been following MLBtraderumors.com and had not seen any updates like this tweet. Not hearing of further meetings was concerning so I'm to hear they are meeting this week. Hopefully, we hear of 'progress', if not an agreement.

[Ocotillo]

NEW: Labor Secretary Marty Walsh has communicated to MLB a willingness to get involved with baseball’s ongoing lockout, per two people close to the process

This comes after the players union rejected league’s offer of a third-party federal mediator

— Jonathan Lemire (@JonLemire) February 7, 2022

Labor Secretary Marty Walsh’s comment following my report this morning that he has offered to help resolve the Major League Baseball lockout: pic.twitter.com/MdQIGDdjsN

— Jonathan Lemire (@JonLemire) February 7, 2022

[Ocotillo]

Shouting? Cursing? 'So be it': MLBPA rep Andrew Miller on where MLB's labor negotiations stand https://t.co/JKYuDRcl2I

— Buster Olney (@Buster_ESPN) February 7, 2022

[Ocotillo]

Actually it's due to the lockout. If the lockout did not occur, the terms and conditions of employment of the expired CBA and its appendices and addenda would remain in full force and effect, including the JDA. If the lockout were lifted, the JDA would continue until a new CBA. https://t.co/dX6cV2Yojr

— (((EugeneFreedman))) (@EugeneFreedman) February 7, 2022

[htismaqe]

The MLBPA is still adamantly opposed to a salary cap.

**** em.

[Ocotillo]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

The MLBPA is still adamantly opposed to a salary cap.

**** em.

Why would the MLBPA agree to that when the Pirates ($34.4 million), the Orioles ($40.4 million) and the Indians ($46.6 million) all have projected 2022 payroll under $50 million?

Why would they want to cap the Dodgers' and Yankees' spending when they are willing to pay their clientele their true worth?

[suzzer99]

Originally Posted by Ocotillo

Why would the MLBPA agree to that when the Pirates ($34.4 million), the Orioles ($40.4 million) and the Indians ($46.6 million) all have projected 2022 payroll under $50 million?

Why would they want to cap the Dodgers' and Yankees' spending when they are willing to pay their clientele their true worth?

A cap always comes with a floor. The players are opposed to any cap, even with a floor.

The players are perfectly happy with the current structure where big market teams get to keep their homegrown stars, while small market teams lose theirs, and have to tank for "windows" where they can actually win.

The players want even more competitive disparity via getting to free agency sooner and ending the luxury tax. Their answer seems to be to shame the "greedy" small market owners into spending more. And if that doesn't work? Oh well.

The players are looking out for their own interests. Good for them. But they might be short-sighted. What makes the players the most money right now might not work forever, if the game keeps bleeding fans due to tanking and lack of competitive balance. Without the fans there won't be any money to fight over, and they can all go back to playing for the love of the game.

[Ocotillo]

Originally Posted by suzzer99

A cap always comes with a floor. The players are opposed to any cap, even with a floor.

The players are perfectly happy with the current structure where big market teams get to keep their homegrown stars, while small market teams lose theirs, and have to tank for "windows" where they can actually win.

The players want even more competitive disparity via getting to free agency sooner and ending the luxury tax. Their answer seems to be to shame the "greedy" small market owners into spending more. And if that doesn't work? Oh well.

The players are looking out for their own interests. Good for them. But they might be short-sighted. What makes the players the most money right now might not work forever, if the game keeps bleeding fans due to tanking and lack of competitive balance. Without the fans there won't be any money to fight over, and they can all go back to playing for the love of the game.

The competitive balance tax is already working as a de facto salary tax. Only the Dodgers and Padres surpassed the luxury tax threshold in 2021 and the Padres were barely over. The Padres were always the poster child for small market teams.

Five teams -- Phillies, Yankees, Mets, Red Sox and Astros -- were within $5 million or less of the luxury tax threshold so obviously the penalties are stopping them from spending more. It's only one franchise running roughshod over the luxury tax threshold.

The Dodgers just lost homegrown star Corey Seager to the Rangers and because they're so high above the competitive balance tax, they are only being compensated a fourth round pick for him. It's not just the small market teams losing their stars. The Cubs and Nationals recently lost a bunch of homegrown stars and they're both $200 million payroll type teams. The Red Sox lost Mookie Betts and could very well lose Xander Bogaerts after 2022.

The players already dropped their request for five-year free agency. The reason why is because they knew the owners would have shut down the season over that issue.

You're contradicting yourself here. You make it sound like you want a floor but you accuse the players of shaming the greedy, small market owners into spending more. Personally, I think a team like the Orioles shouldn't throw money at a second-tier free agent. They should save their dollars to invest in Adley Ruschmann and Grayson Rodriguez long term. But if they have some agent like Scott Boras, it's not happening. I totally feel the pain of a small-market fan being a small-market fan myself who has been through too many fire sales.

The floor proposal wasn't taken seriously by the MLBPA because the luxury tax threshold was going to come down to $180 million.

I don't understand why you blame the players when the owners locked them out in the first place. The owners did this to themselves if you think back to the winters of 2018/19 and 2019/20. Ice frozen free agent markets with snail pace movement. They had this war coming to them.

But I will say this, I feel like the MLBPA has bent over backwards to cater to the needs of Scott Boras and the top 5% player when they're doing just fine even in the status quo CBA that the owners love. Juan Soto is going to get his $450 million.

The MLBPA should be fighting for the player that gets paid $10K a year in the minors, makes the majors for three years and then gets tossed to the side for a replacement minimum salary rookie.

I totally feel you though. Both parties should be growing the game, enhancing the product instead of engaging in the war that nobody cares about. There's a lot of diehards, not casual fans, turned off by this and are ready to jump ship.

[Rasputin]

I don't even know who won the 2021 world series.


I can tell you who won the 2015 World Series THE ROYALS


Since they got rid of Hosmer my interest in the sport has withered. Still love my Royals oh yeah now I remember other reason i quit watching is Joe Buck . It was intolerable to listen to Joe Buck. So if there is a lockout MLB can go Buck themselves.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Ocotillo

The competitive balance tax is already working as a de facto salary tax. Only the Dodgers and Padres surpassed the luxury tax threshold in 2021 and the Padres were barely over. The Padres were always the poster child for small market teams.

Five teams -- Phillies, Yankees, Mets, Red Sox and Astros -- were within $5 million or less of the luxury tax threshold so obviously the penalties are stopping them from spending more. It's only one franchise running roughshod over the luxury tax threshold.

The Dodgers just lost homegrown star Corey Seager to the Rangers and because they're so high above the competitive balance tax, they are only being compensated a fourth round pick for him. It's not just the small market teams losing their stars. The Cubs and Nationals recently lost a bunch of homegrown stars and they're both $200 million payroll type teams. The Red Sox lost Mookie Betts and could very well lose Xander Bogaerts after 2022.

The players already dropped their request for five-year free agency. The reason why is because they knew the owners would have shut down the season over that issue.

You're contradicting yourself here. You make it sound like you want a floor but you accuse the players of shaming the greedy, small market owners into spending more. Personally, I think a team like the Orioles shouldn't throw money at a second-tier free agent. They should save their dollars to invest in Adley Ruschmann and Grayson Rodriguez long term. But if they have some agent like Scott Boras, it's not happening. I totally feel the pain of a small-market fan being a small-market fan myself who has been through too many fire sales.

The floor proposal wasn't taken seriously by the MLBPA because the luxury tax threshold was going to come down to $180 million.

I don't understand why you blame the players when the owners locked them out in the first place. The owners did this to themselves if you think back to the winters of 2018/19 and 2019/20. Ice frozen free agent markets with snail pace movement. They had this war coming to them.

But I will say this, I feel like the MLBPA has bent over backwards to cater to the needs of Scott Boras and the top 5% player when they're doing just fine even in the status quo CBA that the owners love. Juan Soto is going to get his $450 million.

The MLBPA should be fighting for the player that gets paid $10K a year in the minors, makes the majors for three years and then gets tossed to the side for a replacement minimum salary rookie.

I totally feel you though. Both parties should be growing the game, enhancing the product instead of engaging in the war that nobody cares about. There's a lot of diehards, not casual fans, turned off by this and are ready to jump ship.

Yeah, I think a lot of the competitive balance stuff is overblown. One of the unique things about baseball is that teams get punished for bad long term deals by getting saddled with the contract. Like Bobby Bonilla, but usually it’s more like pujols (paying a guy way too much at the end of his career) or jacoby elsbury (paying a ton for a guy who doesn’t even play). It’s not like the 2000s when the Yankees and Red Sox were unstoppable. Frankly, the nfl and nba have a way bigger parity issue with dynasties dominating for decades. The variety of World Series teams and winners has been very good.

The bigger problem is a salary floor. The reason I’m more sympathetic with players is that owners should want a team because they’re hungry to win. Not an investment opportunity, and not winning just enough to make money. Keeping owners accountable for not spending enough is the bigger deal to me. People hated George Steinbrenner but the dude flat out wanted to win and spared no expense to do it.

The game is more competitive balanced than people give it credit for. The bigger crime is when dipshits like Manfred mess with the game to juice up ratings. Like juicing the ball a few years ago. And this season messing up pitchers arms because they stupidly decided to change the rules mid year about doctoring baseballs. Or selig and the steroid era. More offense tends to favor high payroll teams because a few great hitters can make up for mediocre pitching. Without offense, teams are rewarded for depth and bullpens and coaching, which tends to favor well run teams.

[suzzer99]

Originally Posted by Ocotillo

The competitive balance tax is already working as a de facto salary tax. Only the Dodgers and Padres surpassed the luxury tax threshold in 2021 and the Padres were barely over. The Padres were always the poster child for small market teams.

Five teams -- Phillies, Yankees, Mets, Red Sox and Astros -- were within $5 million or less of the luxury tax threshold so obviously the penalties are stopping them from spending more. It's only one franchise running roughshod over the luxury tax threshold.

The Dodgers just lost homegrown star Corey Seager to the Rangers and because they're so high above the competitive balance tax, they are only being compensated a fourth round pick for him. It's not just the small market teams losing their stars. The Cubs and Nationals recently lost a bunch of homegrown stars and they're both $200 million payroll type teams. The Red Sox lost Mookie Betts and could very well lose Xander Bogaerts after 2022.

The players already dropped their request for five-year free agency. The reason why is because they knew the owners would have shut down the season over that issue.

You're contradicting yourself here. You make it sound like you want a floor but you accuse the players of shaming the greedy, small market owners into spending more. Personally, I think a team like the Orioles shouldn't throw money at a second-tier free agent. They should save their dollars to invest in Adley Ruschmann and Grayson Rodriguez long term. But if they have some agent like Scott Boras, it's not happening. I totally feel the pain of a small-market fan being a small-market fan myself who has been through too many fire sales.

The floor proposal wasn't taken seriously by the MLBPA because the luxury tax threshold was going to come down to $180 million.

I don't understand why you blame the players when the owners locked them out in the first place. The owners did this to themselves if you think back to the winters of 2018/19 and 2019/20. Ice frozen free agent markets with snail pace movement. They had this war coming to them.

But I will say this, I feel like the MLBPA has bent over backwards to cater to the needs of Scott Boras and the top 5% player when they're doing just fine even in the status quo CBA that the owners love. Juan Soto is going to get his $450 million.

The MLBPA should be fighting for the player that gets paid $10K a year in the minors, makes the majors for three years and then gets tossed to the side for a replacement minimum salary rookie.

I totally feel you though. Both parties should be growing the game, enhancing the product instead of engaging in the war that nobody cares about. There's a lot of diehards, not casual fans, turned off by this and are ready to jump ship.

Thanks this is some good info I didn't have. FWIW I don't blame the players any more than the owners. My position is simple - the game sucks right now. I don't care whose fault it is. I do get annoyed with baseball twitter, which seems to almost universally take the players side on every position. It feels like a bunch of reporters and pundits worrying about losing access and/or being bullied by Boras.

Knowing that today's Royals could never keep a generational talent like George Brett past his rookie deal, and Salvy might be the Royals' last shot at a homegrown HOFer who stays with the team (and only because of a terrible fluke contract) make the game a lot less fun for me. When Damon and Beltran left is when the new reality sunk home for a lot of KC fans. The '75-85 Royals were so fun - largely because they kept the core group of Brett, McRae, Wilson, White, and Otis together. That could never happen now.

That stuff matters to me as a fan. I went to Brett's last game. I flew back to KC for Cain/Hos/Esky/Moose's last game. I will go to Salvy's last game. I don't want to root for a bunch of Kevin McReynolds/Jeff King retreads. Knowing the 2014/2015 core was always going to be gone was bittersweet. The wins were still amazing, but there was always this sad pall hanging over the team. Imagine knowing the Chiefs were going to lose Mahomes in a couple years. It wouldn't be the same and would be a much shittier fan experience.

And tanking. The players say it's greedy owners, the owners say it's necessary. The only thing not in doubt is that it sucks for the fans. Maybe both sides need a real scare that they could actually kill the golden goose, before it dawns on them that w/o fans there is no money to fight over.

[suzzer99]

You think the Royals could keep a Bryce Harper, Mike Trout, Max Scherzer or Clayton Kershaw? Show me some examples of small market teams keeping generational talents. Closest I got is Christian Yelich and Joey Votto - not quite generational talents imo. And those are exceptions, not the norm.

Meanwhile the Yankees never have to worry they'll lose Judge, Dodgers never have to worry about losing Bellinger and Kershaw. Yeah those teams might lose a Betts or a Seager sometimes. But again, those are exceptions for big market teams, not the norm. And when the Sox lose Betts, they sure as hell aren't losing him to the Royals.

Big market teams can afford to risk giving a huge contract to homegrown stars or free agent guys and them not living up to it. Small market teams have much less margin for error.

[ChiefsCountry]

Originally Posted by suzzer99

You think the Royals could keep a Bryce Harper, Mike Trout, Max Scherzer or Clayton Kershaw? Show me some examples of small market teams keeping generational talents. Closest I got is Christian Yelich and Joey Votto - not quite generational talents imo. And those are exceptions, not the norm.

Meanwhile the Yankees never have to worry they'll lose Judge, Dodgers never have to worry about losing Bellinger and Kershaw. Yeah those teams might lose a Betts or a Seager sometimes. But again, those are exceptions for big market teams, not the norm. And when the Sox lose Betts, they sure as hell aren't losing him to the Royals.

Big market teams can afford to risk giving a huge contract to homegrown stars or free agent guys and them not living up to it. Small market teams have much less margin for error.

Yes, if the Royals had a generational talent they could keep them.