Mike Vrabel

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Ultra Peanut

Veteran leadership is nice, and all, but you have to have some talent in place before it can be led.

If it's a 7th rounder, whatever, but the overall shift in scheme and the lost opportunity to try to get a player capable of being around for more than two years is pretty disheartening if it's much more than that.

You overrate 5th and 6th round picks as well.

And Vrabes can help you with more than just one player. He can help your entire squad start walking down the path of winning.

You guys are incredible. The value you put on late round picks is truly mind-boggling. You're already fielding the kiddie-squad. You think another 22 year old drafted in the late rounds is "THE Answer"? Yeesh.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

You overrate 5th and 6th round picks as well.

Says the guy who's team scored a first ballot HOFer with a 6th round pick.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Says the guy who's team scored a first ballot HOFer with a 6th round pick.

Yeah, but it was a stroke of lightning. Pats trade those picks coming and going like they're water.

[Ultra Peanut]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

You overrate 5th and 6th round picks as well.

And Vrabes can help you with more than just one player. He can help your entire squad start walking down the path of winning.

You guys are incredible. The value you put on late round picks is truly mind-boggling. You're already fielding the kiddie-squad. You think another 22 year old drafted in the late rounds is "THE Answer"? Yeesh.

There is no one answer for this team. It's utterly bereft of talent outside of a few players who aren't even a good fit for the new system that's in place. If we drop a 4th rounder for a guy who can provide two or three years of diminished production, at most, it's ****ing ridiculous.

There's a place for leadership, but I would rather upgrade the talent significantly first rather than trying to sprinkle some pixie dust on the turds who currently make up the team. You can do both, but my hope is just that we added the pixie dust for a reasonable price.

Originally Posted by Amnorix

The Dolphins are NOT that talented. They just aren't. But they improved 10 games in part because of intangibles.

And they're going to fall right back off next year. Who cares about the Dolphins?

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Ultra Peanut

There's a place for leadership, but I would rather upgrade the talent significantly first rather than trying to sprinkle some pixie dust on the turds who currently make up the team. You can do both, but my hope is just that we added the pixie dust for a reasonable price.

First, if the team currently is a bunch of turds, then Pioli will likely cut alot of guys and be assembling from scratch. If not, then he'll keep a fair few players.

Either way, the team you see in 2009 will have the nucleus of the team going forward into 2010 and 2011. The team that wins tomorrow is being formed NOW. You need to show them how to get from the piece of crap the Chiefs currently call their team to a team that is "big, tough, strong, and competes for championships year after year", whcih is the BB/SP motto.

And you are going to spend one or more relatively high picks on the defnsive side of the ball. Thsoe guys are your future too. And they need leadership too.

[el borracho]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

First, if the team currently is a bunch of turds, then Pioli will likely cut alot of guys and be assembling from scratch. If not, then he'll keep a fair few players.

Either way, the team you see in 2009 will have the nucleus of the team going forward into 2010 and 2011. The team that wins tomorrow is being formed NOW. You need to show them how to get from the piece of crap the Chiefs currently call their team to a team that is "big, tough, strong, and competes for championships year after year", whcih is the BB/SP motto.

And you are going to spend one or more relatively high picks on the defnsive side of the ball. Thsoe guys are your future too. And they need leadership too.

Nothing to do with this post in particular but, Wow! I can't recall seeing you so fired up about something on here. I hope you are correct but, as of now, I don't see this as a good (or necessary) trade. In any case, I do appreciate your insider's view so, thank you.

[RedThat]

Originally Posted by Ultra Peanut

Veteran leadership is nice, and all, but you have to have some talent in place before it can be led.

Patience my friend. There is some talent on this team, unfortunately, most of it is on the offensive side of the ball. But the draft is coming soon and I strongly feel that Pioli will be looking at the draft to add some young defensive talent on this team.

In addition to discussing about talent, I think that was part of the whole plan when Herm Edwards took over the team?

Get rid of most of the veterans on the roster, rebuild the roster from scratch and load it with an abdunance of youth and talent. And as a consequence, the roster went from being "old" to too "young". Therefore, it also lacked veteran leadership in the process.

I think this move is a classic example in large part of understanding your teams situation and the dynamics that evolve around it.

[Amnorix]

"It's still the guy with the most war stories who has the most impact and influence and has the power to set the tone."

"I think one of the lessons Belichick learned when he was coaching in Celveland was that the big-name players don't always make the best fit. . . . The players who were signed before the start of the 2001 season were all players brought here for specific reasons -- some for specialized skills, others for leadership, still otehrs fro a winning kind of attitude, but all because we were putting together a team, and tehse were some of the elements that were missing."

"Some examples: We acquired Bryan Cox, a veteran linebacker with talent but also a guy who brings an X-factor we needed for attitude. . . . He also brought in Anthony Pleasant, a defensive end he had drafted originally in Cleveland and a player he knew very well, one who would give us some veteran leadership on the defnsive line."

As coaches, we definitely felt we had substantially upgraded the team from where it had been in 2000. We didn't come in saying we had one of the most talented teams int he league, but Coach Belichick made sure all of us knew that we would have a team that was extremely strong mentally."

"After the workouts the players would talk to the coaches about responsibilities and also become use to the verbiage that we would be using. It was all preparation for the season and these guys wanted to do it. All it takes is a couple fo leaders to show the way. If one player told the others, 'Hey, I had a great meeting with Pepper', the next thing I knew there were three or four guys in my office."

Won for All by Pepper Johnson with Bill Gutman.

Pepper is currently the Pats, err, TE coach I think. He was DL coach for a stretch, and was with Belichick as a player with the Giants and Browns.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

"It's still the guy with the most war stories who has the most impact and influence and has the power to set the tone."

"I think one of the lessons Belichick learned when he was coaching in Celveland was that the big-name players don't always make the best fit. . . . The players who were signed before the start of the 2001 season were all players brought here for specific reasons -- some for specialized skills, others for leadership, still otehrs fro a winning kind of attitude, but all because we were putting together a team, and tehse were some of the elements that were missing."

"Some examples: We acquired Bryan Cox, a veteran linebacker with talent but also a guy who brings an X-factor we needed for attitude. . . . He also brought in Anthony Pleasant, a defensive end he had drafted originally in Cleveland and a player he knew very well, one who would give us some veteran leadership on the defnsive line."

As coaches, we definitely felt we had substantially upgraded the team from where it had been in 2000. We didn't come in saying we had one of the most talented teams int he league, but Coach Belichick made sure all of us knew that we would have a team that was extremely strong mentally."

"After the workouts the players would talk to the coaches about responsibilities and also become use to the verbiage that we would be using. It was all preparation for the season and these guys wanted to do it. All it takes is a couple fo leaders to show the way. If one player told the others, 'Hey, I had a great meeting with Pepper', the next thing I knew there were three or four guys in my office."

Won for All by Pepper Johnson with Bill Gutman.

Pepper is currently the Pats, err, TE coach I think. He was DL coach for a stretch, and was with Belichick as a player with the Giants and Browns.

Amno, that's great and all, but you still had some talent prior to that, regardless of the 5-11 record.

You had a franchise QB, 2 decent WRs, Milloy, Bruschi, Law, McGinest, Ted Johnson, Tebucky Jones, etc.

We have Dwayne Bowe, Branden Albert, Glenn Dorsey and Brandon Flowers. That's our current core.

This team needs talent for the leaders to lead.

[Mecca]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Amno, that's great and all, but you still had some talent prior to that, regardless of the 5-11 record.

You had a franchise QB, 2 decent WRs, Milloy, Bruschi, Law, McGinest, Ted Johnson, Tebucky Jones, etc.

We have Dwayne Bowe, Branden Albert, Glenn Dorsey and Brandon Flowers. That's our current core.

This team needs talent for the leaders to lead.

When we become a 3-4 team I'm not sure Glenn Dorsey will even be a part of that core.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Amno, that's great and all, but you still had some talent prior to that, regardless of the 5-11 record.

You had a franchise QB, 2 decent WRs, Milloy, Bruschi, Law, McGinest, Ted Johnson, Tebucky Jones, etc.

We have Dwayne Bowe, Branden Albert, Glenn Dorsey and Brandon Flowers. That's our current core.

This team needs talent for the leaders to lead.

The chances of you finding that talent in the later rounds are REMOTE.

And you underrate what toughness and intelligence can get you. The Dolphins are NOT that talented. They just aren't. But they improved 10 games in part because of intangibles. One of those intangibles was a weak-ass schedule, but the Patriots and Jets had almost the same weak schedule and couldn't win more games than the 'phins. Part of that was ancillary stuff like injuries, etc., but don't ignore intangibles in the NFL.

This isn't the NBA where the team with the best 2-3 players wins every playoff series.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

The chances of you finding that talent in the later rounds are REMOTE.

And you underrate what toughness and intelligence can get you. The Dolphins are NOT that talented. They just aren't. But they improved 10 games in part because of intangibles. One of those intangibles was a weak-ass schedule, but the Patriots and Jets had almost the same weak schedule and couldn't win more games than the 'phins. Part of that was ancillary stuff like injuries, etc., but don't ignore intangibles in the NFL.

This isn't the NBA where the team with the best 2-3 players wins every playoff series.

The Dolphins "improved" because they only beat 2 teams with a winning record in 2008. They "improved" because they added several of "Parcells Guys" through trades and free agency. They "improved" so that the owner could sell the team for more money.

My guess is that they're no better than .500 in 2009.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

The Dolphins "improved" because they only beat 2 teams with a winning record in 2008. They "improved" because they added several of "Parcells Guys" through trades and free agency. They "improved" so that the owner could sell the team for more money.

My guess is that they're no better than .500 in 2009.

I agree. But they still showed 10 games of improvement, and it wasn't just luck and a weak schedule.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

The chances of you finding that talent in the later rounds are REMOTE.

And you underrate what toughness and intelligence can get you. The Dolphins are NOT that talented. They just aren't. But they improved 10 games in part because of intangibles. One of those intangibles was a weak-ass schedule, but the Patriots and Jets had almost the same weak schedule and couldn't win more games than the 'phins. Part of that was ancillary stuff like injuries, etc., but don't ignore intangibles in the NFL.

This isn't the NBA where the team with the best 2-3 players wins every playoff series.

No, I don't underrate toughness or intelligence.

I just don't think that 1 year of Jesus Vrabel is the answer to our problems, especially when there's a damn good chance that the majority of the players he's mentoring will be sent packing. Vrabel can "lead" the charge right out the door.

He's a 1 year rental. I don't see his "influence" carrying over for 3-5 years when this team is competing for a championship.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

No, I don't underrate toughness or intelligence.

I just don't think that 1 year of Jesus Vrabel is the answer to our problems, especially when there's a damn good chance that the majority of the players he's mentoring will be sent packing. Vrabel can "lead" the charge right out the door.

He's a 1 year rental. I don't see his "influence" carrying over for 3-5 years when this team is competing for a championship.

I don't see much chance of the pick you gave up being on the team in 3-5 years.

Who knows. Maybe you gave up a 4th or something, which completely changes the complexion of this discussion. But mainly, I think it's a low pick and more likely than not you gave up very little to get someone who can help start rowing your team's boat in the right directon.

And you have no idea, and will never know, what influence Vrabel might have on the younger players that helps carry over 3-5 years down the road.