what's with all the Orton isn't the answer talk?

Originally Posted by Omega

Some perform better than others under pressure. Also a fact.

No question. You could have said it that way instead of saying "WRONG" and we wouldn't even be having this exchange.

Orton has issues.

I agree. He folds under pressure. That's not surprising. I don't think he has any kind of superior decision making or escapability either. To his credit, he uses his blocks well and slides around the pocket with ease. He also makes quick reads and gets rid of the ball efficiently. Nobody is going to mistake Orton for a superstar QB but he's better than anybody the Chiefs have had in years. I would even go so far as to say he's better than Trent Green.

In a nutshell, I won't cry myself to sleep if the Chiefs keep Orton for 2012. He's not nearly as good as he looked vs. the Packers but he's nowhere near as bad as he's looked at times wearing a bear or horse on his helmet.

[Denny]

Originally Posted by wutamess

OK he has the same stats avg as Cassle. BS! My dad and I argue about the Cheifs as if we're Pioli and Haley. I told him 3 weeeks ago, "dude. We finally have our QB." He looked at me like I was crazy and borderline ignored me.

At least PART of the "same stats as Cassel" has to do with the way he'd been utilized.

In Chicago, after they elevated him to starter, the coaches allowed Kyle a great deal of leeway in his on-field decision-making. He would often audible out of a pass play and into a run - even at the LoS - if that were the best play for the TEAM. He didn't give a rat's ass about puffing up his stats, he wanted his team to win. If that meant only throwing 10 passes in a game and running it the rest of the time, that's what happened. Worked fairly well too - KO was 21-12 (.636) as a starter in Chicago.

In Denver, he ran into the opposite situation. The HC (McDumbass) was obsessively controlling with an ego that demanded EVERYTHING be done his way, no deviations allowed. The play that was sent in had better be the play that was run, regardless of the actual situation on the field. That eventually ended up with the entire Offense being thrown onto Orton's arm. Kyle has a good QB skillset, but few QBs could carry a team like Denver without ANY help from the Defense, ST or run game.

I tried explaining to him we finaly have a qb that can make all of the throws. All he could muster up was he wasn't shit in Denve and he wasn Shit in Chicago. I told him he had good stats lat yar and turned Brandn Lloyd into NFLs #1 wr last year. He wasn't buying it but my point was valid.

Not to mention that Brandon Marshall has dropped off the face of the Earth after moving to Miami. BM set NFL records with Kyle throwing to him.

I further went to explain that now Orton had something he's NEVER had as far as weapons. Now he has 2 BIG WRs as well as a WR that will stretch the field. Add JC and Moeki coming back next year and I think we can be a top 5 offense with Orton.

I've followed Orton's entire pro career. I have NEVER seen an entire group of WRs fight so hard to catch and advance the ball as they were doing for Kyle in the Green Bay game. They sure seemed to appreciate the fact that Orton was getting the ball to them and giving them the opportunity to do something with it.

I just don't understand why people think he's a fluke ad try to compare him to Cassle when he's HEAD AND SHOULDERS above Cassel in EVERY category. I'll go so far as to say we don't need to draft qb this year if we sign Orton... I'm als thinking with Berry coming back and a O tackle and another stud LB to complement DJ, we're poised for a SUPERBOWL RUN!

Because Orton was tagged as a "game-manager" in his rookie year playing for Chicago. He had little support from the FO who were still touting Rex Grossman as the QBotF for the Bears and insisted that Kyle was simply filling in.

So, the perception was established of KO simply being "adequate" but you can do better. Sure you can. There's another Peyton Manning or Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees out there. Somewhere. Maybe. But those guys are very few and very far between. And not always recognized as "THE GUY." Out of that group, only P. Manning was seen that way going into the draft. And at the time, there was a great debate as to whether Peyton or RYAN LEAF was the better pro prospect. It's virtually impossible to KNOW who's going to be great and who's going to be a bust.

A team can do very well with a QB that simply "adequate." The Giants won a Super Bowl with Eli Manning. The Ravens did it with Trent Difler. Since then they've made the post-season 3 consecutive years with Joe Flacco. The Jets have gone to the AFC title game repeatedly with Mark Sanchez. The Bears went to the Super Bowl with Rex Grossman under center. The 49ers have clinched the NFC West with Alex Smith.

Yet the Cardinals are floundering with Kevin Kolb. The Chargers are repeatedly one-and-done in the playoffs with Phillip Rivers. The Eagles are falling apart with Mike Vick. The Cowboys can't get anywhere with Tony Romo.

You can keep spinning your wheels thrashing about in a vain search for the next "great" QB and keep your team in a constant state of self-destructive chaos. Or you can go with a "good" or "adequate" QB and build a winning team...

[the Talking Can]

Originally Posted by Denny

At least PART of the "same stats as Cassel" has to do with the way he'd been utilized.

In Chicago, after they elevated him to starter, the coaches allowed Kyle a great deal of leeway in his on-field decision-making. He would often audible out of a pass play and into a run - even at the LoS - if that were the best play for the TEAM. He didn't give a rat's ass about puffing up his stats, he wanted his team to win. If that meant only throwing 10 passes in a game and running it the rest of the time, that's what happened. Worked fairly well too - KO was 21-12 (.636) as a starter in Chicago.

In Denver, he ran into the opposite situation. The HC (McDumbass) was obsessively controlling with an ego that demanded EVERYTHING be done his way, no deviations allowed. The play that was sent in had better be the play that was run, regardless of the actual situation on the field. That eventually ended up with the entire Offense being thrown onto Orton's arm. Kyle has a good QB skillset, but few QBs could carry a team like Denver without ANY help from the Defense, ST or run game.


Not to mention that Brandon Marshall has dropped off the face of the Earth after moving to Miami. BM set NFL records with Kyle throwing to him.


I've followed Orton's entire pro career. I have NEVER seen an entire group of WRs fight so hard to catch and advance the ball as they were doing for Kyle in the Green Bay game. They sure seemed to appreciate the fact that Orton was getting the ball to them and giving them the opportunity to do something with it.


Because Orton was tagged as a "game-manager" in his rookie year playing for Chicago. He had little support from the FO who were still touting Rex Grossman as the QBotF for the Bears and insisted that Kyle was simply filling in.

So, the perception was established of KO simply being "adequate" but you can do better. Sure you can. There's another Peyton Manning or Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees out there. Somewhere. Maybe. But those guys are very few and very far between. And not always recognized as "THE GUY." Out of that group, only P. Manning was seen that way going into the draft. And at the time, there was a great debate as to whether Peyton or RYAN LEAF was the better pro prospect. It's virtually impossible to KNOW who's going to be great and who's going to be a bust.

A team can do very well with a QB that simply "adequate." The Giants won a Super Bowl with Eli Manning. The Ravens did it with Trent Difler. Since then they've made the post-season 3 consecutive years with Joe Flacco. The Jets have gone to the AFC title game repeatedly with Mark Sanchez. The Bears went to the Super Bowl with Rex Grossman under center. The 49ers have clinched the NFC West with Alex Smith.

Yet the Cardinals are floundering with Kevin Kolb. The Chargers are repeatedly one-and-done in the playoffs with Phillip Rivers. The Eagles are falling apart with Mike Vick. The Cowboys can't get anywhere with Tony Romo.

You can keep spinning your wheels thrashing about in a vain search for the next "great" QB and keep your team in a constant state of self-destructive chaos. Or you can go with a "good" or "adequate" QB and build a winning team...

Eli Manning is 'simply adequate'?

you have to be Carl Peterson...did you lean in your chair and fart while typing that crap?

[Hammock Parties]

Originally Posted by the Talking Can

Eli Manning is 'simply adequate'?

you have to be Carl Peterson...did you lean in your chair and fart while typing that crap?

Manning wasn't particularly good the year the Giants won the Super Bowl. He threw 20 INT.

[the Talking Can]

Originally Posted by Omega

Manning wasn't particularly good the year the Giants won the Super Bowl. He threw 20 INT.

he was clutch all through the playoffs

and he was acquired in the first round...you don't get him as some vet cast off like Orton...if you want to use Manning as an example, the lesson is simple: draft in the 1st

there is nothing in common between him and orton

[Denny]

Originally Posted by the Talking Can

Eli Manning is 'simply adequate'?

you have to be Carl Peterson...did you lean in your chair and fart while typing that crap?

No idea who "Carl Peterson" is.

Eli Manning is NOT an "elite" or "great" QB. The season they won the Super Bowl, he had a passer rating of 73.9. His completion rate was only 56.1%. He averaged only 6.3 Yards Per Attempt. That's been Eli for most of his career - good but definitely NOT "great." Good enough to allow his team to win.

[Hammock Parties]

Originally Posted by Denny

Eli Manning is NOT an "elite" or "great" QB.

He has been the last three seasons.

He's a different player than he was earlier in his career.

[the Talking Can]

Originally Posted by Denny

No idea who "Carl Peterson" is.

Eli Manning is NOT an "elite" or "great" QB. The season they won the Super Bowl, he had a passer rating of 73.9. His completion rate was only 56.1%. He averaged only 6.3 Yards Per Attempt. That's been Eli for most of his career - good but definitely NOT "great." Good enough to allow his team to win.

you don't know who Carl Peterson is?

wtf??

and manning is in fact an Elite QB....he's also a first round QB who won a superbowl by playing great in the playoffs

and you are ****ing clueless...as are most Chiefs fans when it comes to QBs

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by Denny

No idea who "Carl Peterson" is.
Eli Manning is NOT an "elite" or "great" QB. The season they won the Super Bowl, he had a passer rating of 73.9. His completion rate was only 56.1%. He averaged only 6.3 Yards Per Attempt. That's been Eli for most of his career - good but definitely NOT "great." Good enough to allow his team to win.

You don't know who Carl Peterson is? AKA the Prince of Darkness, Satan, Beelzebub, Devil, The Evil One, The Hooven Cloof, Pocker, Serpent, Father of Lies, Lucifer, King Carl, The Deceiver, The Antichrist, Abadden, Lord of the Flies, His Satanic Majesty, Mr. Scratch, Old Gooseberry, Belial, and the enemy of God and humankind.


You never heard of him?

[bevischief]

Originally Posted by Denny

At least PART of the "same stats as Cassel" has to do with the way he'd been utilized.

In Chicago, after they elevated him to starter, the coaches allowed Kyle a great deal of leeway in his on-field decision-making. He would often audible out of a pass play and into a run - even at the LoS - if that were the best play for the TEAM. He didn't give a rat's ass about puffing up his stats, he wanted his team to win. If that meant only throwing 10 passes in a game and running it the rest of the time, that's what happened. Worked fairly well too - KO was 21-12 (.636) as a starter in Chicago.

In Denver, he ran into the opposite situation. The HC (McDumbass) was obsessively controlling with an ego that demanded EVERYTHING be done his way, no deviations allowed. The play that was sent in had better be the play that was run, regardless of the actual situation on the field. That eventually ended up with the entire Offense being thrown onto Orton's arm. Kyle has a good QB skillset, but few QBs could carry a team like Denver without ANY help from the Defense, ST or run game.


Not to mention that Brandon Marshall has dropped off the face of the Earth after moving to Miami. BM set NFL records with Kyle throwing to him.


I've followed Orton's entire pro career. I have NEVER seen an entire group of WRs fight so hard to catch and advance the ball as they were doing for Kyle in the Green Bay game. They sure seemed to appreciate the fact that Orton was getting the ball to them and giving them the opportunity to do something with it.


Because Orton was tagged as a "game-manager" in his rookie year playing for Chicago. He had little support from the FO who were still touting Rex Grossman as the QBotF for the Bears and insisted that Kyle was simply filling in.

So, the perception was established of KO simply being "adequate" but you can do better. Sure you can. There's another Peyton Manning or Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees out there. Somewhere. Maybe. But those guys are very few and very far between. And not always recognized as "THE GUY." Out of that group, only P. Manning was seen that way going into the draft. And at the time, there was a great debate as to whether Peyton or RYAN LEAF was the better pro prospect. It's virtually impossible to KNOW who's going to be great and who's going to be a bust.

A team can do very well with a QB that simply "adequate." The Giants won a Super Bowl with Eli Manning. The Ravens did it with Trent Difler. Since then they've made the post-season 3 consecutive years with Joe Flacco. The Jets have gone to the AFC title game repeatedly with Mark Sanchez. The Bears went to the Super Bowl with Rex Grossman under center. The 49ers have clinched the NFC West with Alex Smith.

Yet the Cardinals are floundering with Kevin Kolb. The Chargers are repeatedly one-and-done in the playoffs with Phillip Rivers. The Eagles are falling apart with Mike Vick. The Cowboys can't get anywhere with Tony Romo.

You can keep spinning your wheels thrashing about in a vain search for the next "great" QB and keep your team in a constant state of self-destructive chaos. Or you can go with a "good" or "adequate" QB and build a winning team...

[Chiefnj2]

Originally Posted by Denny

A team can do very well with a QB that simply "adequate." Or you can go with a "good" or "adequate" QB and build a winning team...

That has been KC's plan for the last 40 years and you know what it has gotten the franchise? Zero, zip, zilch, nada, nothing, crap, horseshit. They keep playing "adequate" at QB and continually fail to make the playoffs or get the crap kicked out of them in the 1st round because of that merely "adequate" QB.

[KC_Lee]

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

That has been KC's plan for the last 40 years and you know what it has gotten the franchise? Zero, zip, zilch, nada, nothing, crap, horseshit. They keep playing "adequate" at QB and continually fail to make the playoffs or get the crap kicked out of them in the 1st round because of that merely "adequate" QB.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

That has been KC's plan for the last 40 years and you know what it has gotten the franchise? Zero, zip, zilch, nada, nothing, crap, horseshit. They keep playing "adequate" at QB and continually fail to make the playoffs or get the crap kicked out of them in the 1st round because of that merely "adequate" QB.

Exactly.

[Denny]

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

That has been KC's plan for the last 40 years and you know what it has gotten the franchise? Zero, zip, zilch, nada, nothing, crap, horseshit. They keep playing "adequate" at QB and continually fail to make the playoffs or get the crap kicked out of them in the 1st round because of that merely "adequate" QB.

Sorry, but I don't rate Cassel as high as "adequate." Or Thigpen. Or Huard. Trent Green was the last KC QB even in that range.

Looking back thru the Chiefs draft history back to 1960, the only QBs who's names I recognize are Brody Croyle and Steve Fuller. Fuller was a good backup for Jim McMahon on the Super Bowl Bears of the 80s. That's the absolute best they've ever done at drafting the QB position.

KC just doesn't have any history of being able to draft a QB at all. Yet now, that's exactly what you want to risk the team's next 4-5 years on...

[Chiefnj2]

Originally Posted by Denny

KC just doesn't have any history of being able to draft a QB at all. Yet now, that's exactly what you want to risk the team's next 4-5 years on...

After 40 years of failure, yes, I would like them to try the approach that works for other teams. I'd rather take a new direction for the next 4 years rather than continue 44 years of a plan that has failed horribly.