Chiefs X and O Guys - How Did Denver Just Shut down the Chiefs Blitz? - Page 10

Otter · 11-17-2013, 11:59 PM

All with football acumen please help me understand. Why didn't the Chiefs Defense touch 5 head, neck bone at least once or twice?

Ace Gunner · 11-19-2013, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagicHef

I guess I don't. Please enlighten me.

Be sure to include links to support yourself.

ah. I guess you don't know a conclusion when you see one, either.

listopencil · 11-19-2013, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rausch

I SO hoped that was going to be on the right side...

Ah well. I'm still going with the game wasn't called all that well, and there were holds and interference on both sides.

**mikeyis4dcats.** · 11-19-2013, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

Simple.

Sutton played man all night and Manning can read it all day. Thus the ball comes out quick at just above 2 seconds per snap

yeah, I shake my head at all the people bitching about no sacks or hurries. The ball is out by the time Hali and Houston even get really engaged at the line.

listopencil · 11-19-2013, 05:51 PM

Monday Read Option: The Kansas City Chiefs Cannot Touch Peyton Manning in Round One
By Jason Lisk November 18, 2013 4:09 pm ET

@jasonlisk

Kansas City entered the Sunday night contest against Denver with 36 sacks on the season, leading the league. They left with zero against Peyton Manning.

How do we allocate responsibility for this? Did the rushing duo of Tamba Hali and Justin Houston (20 sacks combined) have an off night, did the Denver tackles play well, or was it mostly Peyton Manning?

After watching through the game, I am going with a heavy dose of Manning, with an emphasis (even moreso than normal for him) on getting the ball out of his hand quickly because of the sore ankle, with an assist to the receivers winning the one-on-one matchups with the secondary. You can also throw in Manning dominating the pre-snap read battle, so that he was often able to throw to his initial or secondary read very quickly after the ball hit his hands.

The tackles, Chris Clark and Orlando Franklin, got a lot of praise for their work. There were a handful of plays where they did hold up and provide a clean pocket for more than 2.5 seconds, but by and large, all they needed to do was provide some resistance for a second.

Toward the end of the first half, Chris Collinsworth said, “we put the clock on Peyton Manning, on average, 2.5 seconds he’s getting rid of the football.”

At the time he said that (or at least at the same point in the game on review), I actually had it at 1.97 seconds from snap of the ball (often in shotgun) to release from Manning’s hand on average. I am not sure if that was a more general statement for all season, because while timing error is certainly present, I am confident we should not be a half second off.

In the first half, including plays nullified by penalties, I counted only 4 out of 24 passes that took over 2.5 seconds. That included each of the first three passes in the game, when Manning had to throw it short and intentionally away at the feet of the running back under pressure, then checked down after stepping up in pocket, and then threw incomplete (on a play where defensive holding was called).

The only other one I measured in the first half, at 2.6 seconds, elicited a “great protection” comment from Al Michaels, which was probably a natural gut reaction to actually seeing Manning hold the ball in the pocket.

The longest time from snap to release in the game was on a near sack where Michaels noted ”Pressure was put on, had to throw it away” and Orlando Franklin got pushed into Manning, forcing the incompletion. It took 3.2 seconds for the ball to come out of Manning’s hand, and here’s what the Denver pocket looked like at 3 seconds.

Of course, we rarely got to see what the Denver pocket looked like at 3 seconds. The only other throw that got to 3 seconds was on one where Manning slid outside to avoid pressure, then hit Decker coming across on a pick play.

Contrast that with the opponent. I’ve got Alex Smith at 3.1 seconds on average from snap to release (or sack, or breaking into a run). Whereas only 3 of 44 plays from Manning took 3 seconds or more, nearly half of Smith’s did.

How much does that make an offensive line look good to the casual observer? If you watched the game, you probably remember Derek Wolfe beating rookie #1 overall pick Eric Fisher for a sack in the second half.

That picture is 2.8 seconds after the snap. Yes, Fisher got off balance and looked bad; you might not have ever noticed if the quarterback got the ball out. On all but three of his throws, Manning would have either already had it gone by that point or have his arm in motion. Alex Smith was sacked three times, and it took an average of 3.3 seconds–longer than any Manning throw all night.

Compare that to this throw from Manning. The right tackle actually missed badly, and pressure was coming. This one was actually above average in terms of time it took for the play to develop and the ball to get released. Manning still managed to get rid of it just in time to avoid a hit. Swap the quarterbacks, and Franklin looks as bad as Fisher there.

Manning did a lot of his work pre-snap, and rarely got to the third read. The Chiefs would have perhaps been better served making the hobbled Manning do more of his work once the ball was live. If we exclude penalty plays, there were 40 passes. Exactly have came with less than 2 seconds elapsing from snap to release.

Manning was 13 of 20 for 10.1 yards per attempt on throws that took less than 2 seconds. When plays took more time to develop or Manning was forced to go away from his primary or secondary, the Chiefs were better off. Manning was 11 of 20 for 6.05 yards per attempt on plays that took 2 seconds or more to the pass.

The Chiefs defenders rarely got close to the ball when Manning released it so quickly. The one time they did-here-they did not capitalize like they have for much of the year.

Round one went to the Broncos because Manning, on a sore ankle, used his cerebral cortex and his timing, training, preparation and quick release to offset. Hali and Houston did not have an off night; they just did not have the opportunities against Peyton. We’ll see what adjustments the Chiefs make in round two, because the rematch in Arrowhead (and likely for the #1 seed) will depend on either getting to Manning, or if he gets rid of it as quickly again, making some big plays on those quick routes.

http://thebiglead.com/2013/11/18/mon...-in-round-one/

Three7s · 11-19-2013, 06:50 PM

^Great read.

I knew there were plays where there was pressure, but Manning is Manning for a reason. After that article, I think Manning in Denver is probably unbeatable.

MagicHef · 11-19-2013, 07:09 PM

Why was this "almost an interception"? Demps runs behind Thomas, the ball would have had to teleport through Thomas' hands for an interception to be possible. Demps keeps himself from being able to make a tackle in order to have no chance at an INT.

Really, it was just a stupid defensive play.

listopencil · 11-19-2013, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagicHef

Why was this "almost an interception"? Demps runs behind Thomas, the ball would have had to teleport through Thomas' hands for an interception to be possible. Demps keeps himself from being able to make a tackle in order to have no chance at an INT.

Really, it was just a stupid defensive play.

You can see it better with a view from behind the LOS. If that defender was just a touch faster (or closer) he would have had it. Julius Thomas wasn't in front of the ball the whole time. He turned and grabbed it out of the air. The defender was running right to the spot of the reception but got there a split second too late.

listopencil · 11-19-2013, 07:28 PM

When that play happened I remember yelling "Shit!" because I thought it was going to be a pick six. I'm pretty sure SNF had a replay from behind the LOS, or at least a view from behind Thomas.

Three7s · 11-19-2013, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by listopencil

When that play happened I remember yelling "Shit!" because I thought it was going to be a pick six. I'm pretty sure SNF had a replay from behind the LOS, or at least a view from behind Thomas.

I just about roared when I saw the play, then realized he whiffed and became a sad panda. That pick six changes the game completely.

That's the risk of jumping a route. If you're even an inch off, it's a big play.

listopencil · 11-19-2013, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Three7s

I just about roared when I saw the play, then realized he whiffed and became a sad panda. That pick six changes the game completely.

That's the risk of jumping a route. If you're even an inch off, it's a big play.

It was certainly a gamble. It paid off, but it made me nervous.

chiefzilla1501 · 11-19-2013, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by listopencil

It was certainly a gamble. It paid off, but it made me nervous.

The reason why the Chiefs played Manning well that night is that they had quite a few almost-picks. None of them easy (that Demps pass being one he should have had), but several thrown almost into the ground that just bounced off our chests. In a game where things go your way, those tough INT opps turn into INTs. It was one of those days I thought bounces just didn't go our way. Those wouldn't have swung the game significantly, but just 1 of those opportune turnovers would put us back into the game. In almost every opportunistic moment, we made nothing of it.

listopencil · 11-19-2013, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

The reason why the Chiefs played Manning well that night is that they had quite a few almost-picks. None of them easy (that Demps pass being one he should have had), but several thrown almost into the ground that just bounced off our chests. In a game where things go your way, those tough INT opps turn into INTs. It was one of those days I thought bounces just didn't go our way. Those wouldn't have swung the game significantly, but just 1 of those opportune turnovers would put us back into the game. In almost every opportunistic moment, we made nothing of it.

True. I was almost anticipating a defensive score off of a turnover late in the game. Especially after your last TD.

Ace Gunner · 11-19-2013, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagicHef

Why was this "almost an interception"? Demps runs behind Thomas, the ball would have had to teleport through Thomas' hands for an interception to be possible. Demps keeps himself from being able to make a tackle in order to have no chance at an INT.

Really, it was just a stupid defensive play.

yep -- he thought the route went further to the sideline and was gonna jump it, but Thomas is a bright guy and knew to break that route off right in front of the outside cover, splitting the cover guys as he went upfield.

listopencil · 11-19-2013, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace Gunner

yep -- he thought the route went further to the sideline and was gonna jump it, but Thomas is a bright guy and knew to break that route off right in front of the outside cover, splitting the cover guys as he went upfield.

I get what you are saying but it looked like he still closed in on the ball almost quickly enough to pick it off, and Thomas' body wasn't shielding it away from him.

Sorter · 11-19-2013, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagicHef

Why was this "almost an interception"? Demps runs behind Thomas, the ball would have had to teleport through Thomas' hands for an interception to be possible. Demps keeps himself from being able to make a tackle in order to have no chance at an INT.

Really, it was just a stupid defensive play.

11-17-2013, 11:59 PM
Otter Live free or die hard Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Durango, CO Casino cash: $2308382	X and O Guys - How Did Denver Just Shut down the Chiefs Blitz? All with football acumen please help me understand. Why didn't the Chiefs Defense touch 5 head, neck bone at least once or twice?
Posts: 26,328

11-19-2013, 05:51 PM	#139
listopencil Immanentize The Eschaton Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: In Partibus Infidelium Casino cash: $1735880	Monday Read Option: The Kansas City Chiefs Cannot Touch Peyton Manning in Round One By Jason Lisk November 18, 2013 4:09 pm ET @jasonlisk Kansas City entered the Sunday night contest against Denver with 36 sacks on the season, leading the league. They left with zero against Peyton Manning. How do we allocate responsibility for this? Did the rushing duo of Tamba Hali and Justin Houston (20 sacks combined) have an off night, did the Denver tackles play well, or was it mostly Peyton Manning? After watching through the game, I am going with a heavy dose of Manning, with an emphasis (even moreso than normal for him) on getting the ball out of his hand quickly because of the sore ankle, with an assist to the receivers winning the one-on-one matchups with the secondary. You can also throw in Manning dominating the pre-snap read battle, so that he was often able to throw to his initial or secondary read very quickly after the ball hit his hands. The tackles, Chris Clark and Orlando Franklin, got a lot of praise for their work. There were a handful of plays where they did hold up and provide a clean pocket for more than 2.5 seconds, but by and large, all they needed to do was provide some resistance for a second. Toward the end of the first half, Chris Collinsworth said, “we put the clock on Peyton Manning, on average, 2.5 seconds he’s getting rid of the football.” At the time he said that (or at least at the same point in the game on review), I actually had it at 1.97 seconds from snap of the ball (often in shotgun) to release from Manning’s hand on average. I am not sure if that was a more general statement for all season, because while timing error is certainly present, I am confident we should not be a half second off. In the first half, including plays nullified by penalties, I counted only 4 out of 24 passes that took over 2.5 seconds. That included each of the first three passes in the game, when Manning had to throw it short and intentionally away at the feet of the running back under pressure, then checked down after stepping up in pocket, and then threw incomplete (on a play where defensive holding was called). The only other one I measured in the first half, at 2.6 seconds, elicited a “great protection” comment from Al Michaels, which was probably a natural gut reaction to actually seeing Manning hold the ball in the pocket. The longest time from snap to release in the game was on a near sack where Michaels noted ”Pressure was put on, had to throw it away” and Orlando Franklin got pushed into Manning, forcing the incompletion. It took 3.2 seconds for the ball to come out of Manning’s hand, and here’s what the Denver pocket looked like at 3 seconds. Of course, we rarely got to see what the Denver pocket looked like at 3 seconds. The only other throw that got to 3 seconds was on one where Manning slid outside to avoid pressure, then hit Decker coming across on a pick play. Contrast that with the opponent. I’ve got Alex Smith at 3.1 seconds on average from snap to release (or sack, or breaking into a run). Whereas only 3 of 44 plays from Manning took 3 seconds or more, nearly half of Smith’s did. How much does that make an offensive line look good to the casual observer? If you watched the game, you probably remember Derek Wolfe beating rookie #1 overall pick Eric Fisher for a sack in the second half. That picture is 2.8 seconds after the snap. Yes, Fisher got off balance and looked bad; you might not have ever noticed if the quarterback got the ball out. On all but three of his throws, Manning would have either already had it gone by that point or have his arm in motion. Alex Smith was sacked three times, and it took an average of 3.3 seconds–longer than any Manning throw all night. Compare that to this throw from Manning. The right tackle actually missed badly, and pressure was coming. This one was actually above average in terms of time it took for the play to develop and the ball to get released. Manning still managed to get rid of it just in time to avoid a hit. Swap the quarterbacks, and Franklin looks as bad as Fisher there. Manning did a lot of his work pre-snap, and rarely got to the third read. The Chiefs would have perhaps been better served making the hobbled Manning do more of his work once the ball was live. If we exclude penalty plays, there were 40 passes. Exactly have came with less than 2 seconds elapsing from snap to release. Manning was 13 of 20 for 10.1 yards per attempt on throws that took less than 2 seconds. When plays took more time to develop or Manning was forced to go away from his primary or secondary, the Chiefs were better off. Manning was 11 of 20 for 6.05 yards per attempt on plays that took 2 seconds or more to the pass. The Chiefs defenders rarely got close to the ball when Manning released it so quickly. The one time they did-here-they did not capitalize like they have for much of the year. Round one went to the Broncos because Manning, on a sore ankle, used his cerebral cortex and his timing, training, preparation and quick release to offset. Hali and Houston did not have an off night; they just did not have the opportunities against Peyton. We’ll see what adjustments the Chiefs make in round two, because the rematch in Arrowhead (and likely for the #1 seed) will depend on either getting to Manning, or if he gets rid of it as quickly again, making some big plays on those quick routes. http://thebiglead.com/2013/11/18/mon...-in-round-one/ __________________ Good friends we have had, oh, good friends we've lost...along the way. In this great future, you can't forget your past. So dry your tears, I say.
Posts: 56,045

11-19-2013, 06:50 PM	#140
Three7s MVP Join Date: Nov 2008 Casino cash: $10084719	^Great read. I knew there were plays where there was pressure, but Manning is Manning for a reason. After that article, I think Manning in Denver is probably unbeatable. __________________ $E:\AlexGordon1-1.jpg$ Want some easy money, click here!
Posts: 6,739

11-19-2013, 07:09 PM	#141
MagicHef The Seated Villain Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Seattle Casino cash: $2100247	Why was this "almost an interception"? Demps runs behind Thomas, the ball would have had to teleport through Thomas' hands for an interception to be possible. Demps keeps himself from being able to make a tackle in order to have no chance at an INT. Really, it was just a stupid defensive play.
Posts: 10,582

11-19-2013, 07:28 PM	#143
listopencil Immanentize The Eschaton Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: In Partibus Infidelium Casino cash: $1735880	When that play happened I remember yelling "Shit!" because I thought it was going to be a pick six. I'm pretty sure SNF had a replay from behind the LOS, or at least a view from behind Thomas. __________________ Good friends we have had, oh, good friends we've lost...along the way. In this great future, you can't forget your past. So dry your tears, I say.
Posts: 56,045