Illegal Immigration: What should we do?

[Mr. Kotter]

MODS: I'm interested in finding out what CP members think about this issue, and while I understand it's an issue ripe for political discussion.....I'd ask for it to remain in the Lounge for a couple of days, if at all possible, before moving it to its inevitable death in DC.

Fellow ChiefsPlanet posters: Can we try to have a reasonable discussion over this issue without it becoming too heated and denigrating into purely partisan demagoguery or racist insults? Please?

FWIW, I'm following the debate over immigration legislation somewhat closely, and I'm trying to figure out what the middle ground--if there is any--on the issue might be.

Thanks in advance for you opinions and posts.

Poll to follow, shortly....

[BigChiefFan]

What part of ILLEGAL don't these immigrants not understand? The tax burden falls on all of us honest, hard-working TAXPAYERS to foot the bill for those that CHOOSE to SPONGE off of society. Why the Hell should we pay for somebody to have FREE Healthcare and education AND be paid TAX-FREE money.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by BigChiefFan

What part of ILLEGAL don't these immigrants not understand? The tax burden falls on all of us honest, hard-working TAXPAYERS to foot the bill for those that CHOOSE to SPONGE off of society. Why the Hell should we pay for somebody to have FREE Healthcare and education AND be paid TAX-FREE money.

If you honestly think that description applies to the majority, or even a significant number, of the people whom we are talking about....you are simply buying into the ignorant stereotypes that too many Americans perpetuate without actually researching the statistics. Please consider reading the thread and some of the links, or doing some basic research ,before you say something like that.

If nothing else, this much is clear: illegals are NOT a "drain" on the economy or tax payers. They more than pay for the services rendered unto them, through the payment of taxes by those who have jobs and are paying taxes. Juan may be a leech; but Santiago, Maria, and Felipe more than off-set the services Juan is getting.

[Donger]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

If nothing else, this much is clear: illegals are NOT a "drain" on the economy or tax payers. They more than pay for the services rendered unto them, through the payment of taxes by those who have jobs and are paying taxes. Juan may be a leech; but Santiago, Maria, and Felipe more than off-set the services Juan is getting.

That's wrong: Illegal alien households are estimated to use $2,700 a year more in services than they pay in taxes, creating a total fiscal burden of nearly $10.4 billion on the federal budget in 2002.

[memyselfI]

The solution is not as complicated as it seems...

one of the main reasons for the illegal immigration is it's so difficult and expensive for anyone to migrate here legally. The process of obtaining a green card needs to be streamlined and expedited. That is why you have nearly half of all 'illegal aliens' here with papers like expired travel or student visas. These people HAVE documents and if they've been in the country for than two years past the expiration of their visa they should be granted access to making their standing legal. It should not be difficult if they have learned the language, are working, and have fully integrated into American life. If this ONE STEP, is done then it will have a greater impact on stopping the flow of illegal immigration than would a fence.

Much of the cause of illegal immigration is the paperwork, time, and expense to do it legally. Thus, if the process were simplified this issue would be easier to handle because the alternative would not seem so inviting...

[Inspector]

So...

Is there any paperwork I can fill out making it OK for me to break laws?

I just want to get in on this breaking-laws-and-get-away-with-it deal. Sounds kinda cool. I've never been a law breaker before......

[stevieray]

Originally Posted by memyselfI

The solution is not as complicated as it seems...

one of the main reasons for the illegal immigration is it's so difficult and expensive for anyone to migrate here legally. The process of obtaining a green card needs to be streamlined and expedited. That is why you have nearly half of all 'illegal aliens' here with papers like expired travel or student visas. These people HAVE documents and if they've been in the country for than two years past the expiration of their visa they should be granted access to making their standing legal. It should not be difficult if they have learned the language, are working, and have fully integrated into American life. If this ONE STEP, is done then it will have a greater impact on stopping the flow of illegal immigration than would a fence.

Much of the cause of illegal immigration is the paperwork, time, and expense to do it legally. Thus, if the process were simplified this issue would be easier to handle because the alternative would not seem so inviting...

Much of the cause for illegal immigration is a corrupt governement that is incapable of providing a decent life for it's citizens.

[Donger]

Originally Posted by memyselfI

The solution is not as complicated as it seems...

one of the main reasons for the illegal immigration is it's so difficult and expensive for anyone to migrate here legally. The process of obtaining a green card needs to be streamlined and expedited. That is why you have nearly half of all 'illegal aliens' here with papers like expired travel or student visas. These people HAVE documents and if they've been in the country for than two years past the expiration of their visa they should be granted access to making their standing legal. It should not be difficult if they have learned the language, are working, and have fully integrated into American life. If this ONE STEP, is done then it will have a greater impact on stopping the flow of illegal immigration than would a fence.

Much of the cause of illegal immigration is the paperwork, time, and expense to do it legally. Thus, if the process were simplified this issue would be easier to handle because the alternative would not seem so inviting...

What tripe. Last time I checked, it was right around $190 to apply and file for residency, and the forms are readily available.

* Edit - I was wrong. It's $330 to file form N-400, Application for Naturalization.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Inspector

So...

Is there any paperwork I can fill out making it OK for me to break laws?

I just want to get in on this breaking-laws-and-get-away-with-it deal. Sounds kinda cool. I've never been a law breaker before......

There's no question that these people have broken the law. But arresting them all and deporting them simply is not a viable solution. There's too many of them, and the cost wouldn't jive with the severity of the offense.

You can sit there and cry about them getting away with breaking the law until your dying day, but the simple fact is it's too late to do anything significant about punishing those that are already here. Our government let it go unpunished too long to do anything about it now.

The only thing we can do is take serious steps towards stopping the entry of new illegals, while doing what we can to get current illegals to start contributing to the tax base through legalization.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by Donger

That's wrong: Illegal alien households are estimated to use $2,700 a year more in services than they pay in taxes, creating a total fiscal burden of nearly $10.4 billion on the federal budget in 2002.

I've seen those numbers disputed, and countered. I'll see if I can dig them up here today....

I suspect those numbers are on a per family basis.....the Gonzales family, for example, may use $2,700 more in services, but the Rodriguez, Morales, and Sanchez families contribute more than enough to pay for themselves and some of the families who don't pull their own weight. In other words, there are clearly cases where some are a "burden" but the revenues generated by others off-set the "costs" of those that aren't pulling their weight. Overall, there is a considerable net gain, in terms of revenue versus costs.

I'll have to dig for it though....

[Boozer]

Originally Posted by Donger

That's wrong: Illegal alien households are estimated to use $2,700 a year more in services than they pay in taxes, creating a total fiscal burden of nearly $10.4 billion on the federal budget in 2002.

You got the raw numbers for that?

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Donger

What tripe. Last time I checked, it was right around $190 to apply and file for residency, and the forms are readily available.

* Edit - I was wrong. It's $330 to file form N-400, Application for Naturalization.

Meanwhile, for around $1000, you can secure an illegal path across the border, and for another $500 you gan get a transport to the midwest in a vehicle that's unlikely to be stopped in the INS heavy southwest states.

It has nothing to do with expense.

It does have to do with ignorance. You're talking about people coming from villages with only one phone for the entire village. People that still believe in myths and obscure herbal remedies. All it takes is Uncle Juan from the US to tell them that it's too hard to come in legally, and it's the gospel.

Too many people believe it really is easier to come in illegally, and in many ways it is. They can get here in a week illegally by borrowing money from someone already here.

[Donger]

Originally Posted by Boozer

You got the raw numbers for that?

It's from the Center for Immigration Studies website. I do not know if they have the raw numbers available.

[Donger]

Originally Posted by jspchief

Meanwhile, for around $1000, you can secure an illegal path across the border, and for another $500 you gan get a transport to the midwest in a vehicle that's unlikely to be stopped in the INS heavy southwest states.

It has nothing to do with expense.

It does have to do with ignorance. You're talking about people coming from villages with only one phone for the entire village. People that still believe in myths and obscure herbal remedies. All it takes is Uncle Juan from the US to tell them that it's too hard to come in legally, and it's the gospel.

Too many people believe it really is easier to come in illegally, and in many ways it is. They can get here in a week illegally by borrowing money from someone already here.

Precisely. It's easier to break the law than to follow it.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Donger

Precisely. It's easier to break the law than to follow it.

And then you get to work tax free when you get here.

[Boozer]

Originally Posted by Donger

What tripe. Last time I checked, it was right around $190 to apply and file for residency, and the forms are readily available.

* Edit - I was wrong. It's $330 to file form N-400, Application for Naturalization.

Would someone who wants to get into the country file an N-400? I'm not up on immigration law, but I'm guessing most illegal workers would probably try to be legally admitted on a non-immigrant basis, not on a naturalization track.

Also, what's the probability that a manual laborer in Mexico would be granted a visa for permanent residence? I don't think it's the cost that's keeping them out (many pay very high amounts to be smuggled in), it's that their applications would either be extremely delayed or denied.