Bob Fescoe's Chiefs meltdown this morning

[wazu]

Did several searches. Can't believe this epic rant isn't posted, which probably means it's buried 137 posts deep in some thread with virtually zero description. But I'm posting it anyway. It's too important. Enjoy. (It's an audio link.)

http://podcast.610sports.com/kcsp2/3656437.mp3

[HemiEd]

Originally Posted by milkman

Here's the problem with your argument.

Larry Fitzgerald, is being given opportunities to make plays, even with QBs like John Skelton, Max Hall and Kevin Kolb throwing the ball.

Those guys, even as poorly as they have played target Fitzgerald even if he's brakketed by two defenders.

Matt Cassel is so risk averse that he will not attempt those passes.

Other marginal QBs will still attempt to give their best WR the opportunity to make plays, while Cassel is checkdown king.

This is why Cassel is the worst starting QB in the league.

It isn't about numbers.
It's about leadership and courage.

A receiver like Bowe, with even a marginal QB is open if he's single covered and has just a yard or two of separation, unless you are Matt Cassel.

Sad but true. I still contend this is why Bowe didn't sign a long term deal, he wants away from Cassel so his career can flourish.

[whoman69]

Originally Posted by BlackBob

Burn........

You sure told me!

Going off on you is like hitting a girl.

[Black Bob]

Originally Posted by Pestilence

No. I don't pander to your stupid bullshit.

You want to prove yourself right? Go do your own ****ing research. That's your problem. You post on this board and then don't bring facts to back it up. You want to prove my list wrong. Go do your own ****ing research and show me how many new WRs are on that list every year. Until you do that.....shut the **** up.

Actually, I bring facts almost evey time. I just don't bring facts for you because you aren't very nice. When I don't use facts, I clearly state "in my opinion." Mostly what I see out of you and the other guys that are like you is a bunch of speculation. You really aren't a very good poster. You might hit on something every now and again but mostly you are all about telling people how stupid they are or how much they suck.

Also, you do pander to bullshit and you do believe that perception and credibility do matter on a message board like this.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by BlackBob

Actually, I bring facts almost evey time. I just don't bring facts for you because you aren't very nice. When I don't use facts, I clearly state "in my opinion." Mostly what I see out of you and the other guys that are like you is a bunch of speculation. You really aren't a very good poster. You might hit on something every now and again but mostly you are all about telling people how stupid they are or how much they suck.

Also, you do pander to bullshit and you do believe that perception and credibility do matter on a message board like this.

No....I really only do that to you. Maybe Setsuna every once in a while.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by BlackBob

Actually, I bring facts almost evey time. I just don't bring facts for you because you aren't very nice. When I don't use facts, I clearly state "in my opinion." Mostly what I see out of you and the other guys that are like you is a bunch of speculation. You really aren't a very good poster. You might hit on something every now and again but mostly you are all about telling people how stupid they are or how much they suck.

Also, you do pander to bullshit and you do believe that perception and credibility do matter on a message board like this.

What you bring are stats.

As the old saying goes, there are lies, damn lies, and stats.

Stats do add to the discussion, but don't tell the whole story.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by BlackBob

Why? Tell me what is wrong with what I said? Say something real besides that just sucks. My point is absolutely correct. What Pest did is take two minutes and look at an obvious stat rather than do the actual leg work.

When I said this below, it was the key to the argument.

"How many of those guys are the same from year to year? There are plenty of new WRs in and out of the top 20 every year. They aren't hard to find. It wasn't that way back in the 80's and 90's. It was the same guys over and over."

Do you think most Chiefs fans initially side with you on this conversation? I know they do because I have had this conversation before. That was the last time I did the legwork. Rather than being an asshole, why don't you consider what I said and show some respect? Understand that I am not even trying to win this argument. I am just stating my point.


and you fish... if you are so into science, why are you so prone to believe the first thing you read? Why do you seem to be so closed minded when listening to other peoples findings and theories? A guy like you should be worth more than just one belittling sentence.

Yes, most Chiefs fans side with Pest on this conversation. That's because anyone with a brain can see that Bowe is a very talented receiver on a very bad team with a shit QB.

You've whined and complained about respect here before. But respect here must be earned. You seem to think that you can come here and spew a bunch of awful ideas, and demand respect just because you're participating. You're confusing quantity with quality. You've posted very little since coming here that's deserving of any respect. Yes, you have lots of ideas, and you like to think of them as different and edgy. But they're bullshit. Illogical bullshit. That's why you're getting no respect. People are seeing your posts, and judging you by the quality of your posts. The majority of the board thinks you're an annoying dumbass. That's the moniker you've earned for yourself. This board is good at calling out bullshit for what it is.

Want respect? Earn it. Quite babbling about things you obviously don't understand. If your ideas are stupid, people are going to tell you like they've currently been doing. But you're taking that as some kind of idiotic challenge instead of a learning experience. You're too busy fighting to learn a ****ing thing. Fighting other posters who are more knowledgable than you, using idiotic ideas that don't make sense, isn't going to earn any respect. And I've lost hope that any of this will actually convince you to change your dumbass ways.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by KC Fish

Yes, most Chiefs fans side with Pest on this conversation. That's because anyone with a brain can see that Bowe is a very talented receiver on a very bad team with a shit QB.

You've whined and complained about respect here before. But respect here must be earned. You seem to think that you can come here and spew a bunch of awful ideas, and demand respect just because you're participating. You're confusing quantity with quality. You've posted very little since coming here that's deserving of any respect. Yes, you have lots of ideas, and you like to think of them as different and edgy. But they're bullshit. Illogical bullshit. That's why you're getting no respect. People are seeing your posts, and judging you by the quality of your posts. The majority of the board thinks you're an annoying dumbass. That's the moniker you've earned for yourself. This board is good at calling out bullshit for what it is.

Want respect? Earn it. Quite babbling about things you obviously don't understand. If your ideas are stupid, people are going to tell you like they've currently been doing. But you're taking that as some kind of idiotic challenge instead of a learning experience. You're too busy fighting to learn a ****ing thing. Fighting other posters who are more knowledgable than you, using idiotic ideas that don't make sense, isn't going to earn any respect. And I've lost hope that any of this will actually convince you to change your dumbass ways.

I don't think he's as bad as most make him to be.

He's doing some research to support his ideas, but he's not looking at those numbers and combining them with what is actually happening on the field of play.

[Black Bob]

Originally Posted by milkman

It isn't about numbers.
It's about leadership and courage.

A receiver like Bowe, with even a marginal QB, is open if he's single covered and has just a yard or two of separation, unless you are Matt Cassel.

But that doesn't mean he will catch it. Especially in clutch situations. There has been more than one time he has dropped a critical 3rd down. He's just not elite imo. I believe he did have alligator arms against Pittsburgh. Haley never even stood up for him when asked directly about it. Bowe runs sloppy routes and is an overrated blocker imo. I don't believe you can completely trust him one on one. He is really pretty easy to control by the good corners. Look at the Baltimore playoff game. Where was he that day? He didn't even get a catch.

The last time I had this conversation and I said, "it's easy to find good wide recievers," a guy said, "tell that to the Browns."

Below is what I found.

Here's a rookie from last year who drops the ball alot. He also had a crappy QB. Check out his numbers compared to Bowe's rookie numbers with Huard.

Little only played in 12 games this year.

Bowe 2007 - 15 games 70 rec. 995 yards 5 TDs

Little 2011 - 12 games 61 rec. 709 2 TDs

Little probably would have had better stats than Bowe if he played 15 games.

Also, look around... Colston, Cruz, Nicks, Thomas, Nelson, Jackson... they are all over the place and they aren't first round WRs. It's not that hard to get 70 receptions, 1000 yards, and 5 TDs anymore. Also, receiver used to be one of the hardest positions to make the college to pro transition. It's not anymore because the game is geared towards the offense.

Originally Posted by milkman

I don't think he's as bad as most make him to be.

He's doing some research to support his ideas, but he's not looking at those numbers and combining them with what is actually happening on the field of play.

I guess I kind of feel exactly like you do. It seems to me like you guys are focusing on the numbers but not watching the field.

[Black Bob]

Originally Posted by KC Fish

Yes, most Chiefs fans side with Pest on this conversation. That's because anyone with a brain can see that Bowe is a very talented receiver on a very bad team with a shit QB.

You've whined and complained about respect here before. But respect here must be earned. You seem to think that you can come here and spew a bunch of awful ideas, and demand respect just because you're participating. You're confusing quantity with quality. You've posted very little since coming here that's deserving of any respect. Yes, you have lots of ideas, and you like to think of them as different and edgy. But they're bullshit. Illogical bullshit. That's why you're getting no respect. People are seeing your posts, and judging you by the quality of your posts. The majority of the board thinks you're an annoying dumbass. That's the moniker you've earned for yourself. This board is good at calling out bullshit for what it is.

Want respect? Earn it. Quite babbling about things you obviously don't understand. If your ideas are stupid, people are going to tell you like they've currently been doing. But you're taking that as some kind of idiotic challenge instead of a learning experience. You're too busy fighting to learn a ****ing thing. Fighting other posters who are more knowledgable than you, using idiotic ideas that don't make sense, isn't going to earn any respect. And I've lost hope that any of this will actually convince you to change your dumbass ways.

Pretty lame dude. I was asking that you reply to the Bowe conversation. This is just more of the belittling crap. You are pretty boring imo. I'm not fighting, I'm debating. Also, I haven't asked for respect. I have only stated when i am treated with respect, I treat others with respect. That's probably the same as anyone else right? This whole credibility thing is way overrated. I mean what is your ambition in life? To become a message board guru or something?

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by BlackBob

Also, look around... Colston, Cruz, Nicks, Thomas, Nelson, Jackson... they are all over the place and they aren't first round WRs. It's not that hard to get 70 receptions, 1000 yards, and 5 TDs anymore. Also, receiver used to be one of the hardest positions to make the college to pro transition. It's not anymore because the game is geared towards the offense.

You cherry picked 7 WRs that are the anomaly. Go and look at the number of WRs that get drafted outside of the 1st round and go on to do nothing.

Let's go with 2008 (the year that Nelson and Jackson were drafted)....there were 35 WRs drafted total (none in the 1st round). Out of those 35 WRs there are 3 that could be considered good to great. Jordy Nelson (2nd), Desean Jackson (2nd) and Steve Johnson (7th). That's 35 WRs that have gone on to do jack shit. So it's not as "easy" as you say it is. You make it sound like a team can go in.....draft a WR wherever...plug him in and he'll get 1000 because it's a passing league now. It's ****ing not.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by BlackBob

But that doesn't mean he will catch it. Especially in clutch situations. There has been more than one time he has dropped a critical 3rd down. He's just not elite imo. I believe he did have alligator arms against Pittsburgh. Haley never even stood up for him when asked directly about it. Bowe runs sloppy routes and is an overrated blocker imo. I don't believe you can completely trust him one on one. He is really pretty easy to control by the good corners. Look at the Baltimore playoff game. Where was he that day? He didn't even get a catch.

The last time I had this conversation and I said, "it's easy to find good wide recievers," a guy said, "tell that to the Browns."

Below is what I found.

Here's a rookie from last year who drops the ball alot. He also had a crappy QB. Check out his numbers compared to Bowe's rookie numbers with Huard.

Little only played in 12 games this year.

Bowe 2007 - 15 games 70 rec. 995 yards 5 TDs

Little 2011 - 12 games 61 rec. 709 2 TDs

Little probably would have had better stats than Bowe if he played 15 games.

Also, look around... Colston, Cruz, Nicks, Thomas, Nelson, Jackson... they are all over the place and they aren't first round WRs. It's not that hard to get 70 receptions, 1000 yards, and 5 TDs anymore. Also, receiver used to be one of the hardest positions to make the college to pro transition. It's not anymore because the game is geared towards the offense.

Cassel never looked Bowe's way in that Baltimore game.

There are very few receivers that don't occassionally drop passes, and I believe that Bowe's drop percentage were better than guys like Roddy White and Andre Johnson.

Right now there isn't anyone in the league with more consistent hands than Fitzgerald.

But Bowe is one of the top 5-7 receivers in the NFL right now, and with a QB that can get him the ball on time and accurately, he'd almost certainly be top 5.

And yes, I believe that Cassel's inability to do that, get him the ball on time and accurately, contributes to his drops.

[Sorter]

This wasn't really my fight and I haven't followed this thread too much, but are we having the argument whether Bowe is elite or not again?

If so, here is my take on it that I posted a while ago:
"Fitz, Andre, and Megatron are far and away the best 3 wide outs imo.

Jennings, Roddy, Dwanye, AJ Green, Lloyd, Steve Smith, Marshall, Holmes, Johnson (Bills), VJackson, Nicks, Dez, Julio Jones, Miles Austin, Britt and maybe Mike Wallace (has only run a full route tree for like a year IIR) are all #1's who are roughly around the same skill/talent level. AJ Green probably has the highest ceiling of the 2nd grouping along with Dez, Julio and Dwayne imo, but they are not in the same league yet as the previous 3. I would rather have AJ Green than Dwayne, but thats probably about it, minus the top 3 guys."

[Fish]

Originally Posted by BlackBob

Pretty lame dude. I was asking that you reply to the Bowe conversation. This is just more of the belittling crap. You are pretty boring imo. I'm not fighting, I'm debating. Also, I haven't asked for respect. I have only stated when i am treated with respect, I treat others with respect. That's probably the same as anyone else right? This whole credibility thing is way overrated. I mean what is your ambition in life? To become a message board guru or something?

OK. Keep rowing upstream then. I'm sure things will change for you.

[ToxSocks]

Originally Posted by milkman

Here's the problem with your argument.

Larry Fitzgerald is being given opportunities to make plays, even with QBs like John Skelton, Max Hall and Kevin Kolb throwing the ball.

Those guys, even as poorly as they have played, target Fitzgerald even if he's brakketed by two defenders.

Matt Cassel is so risk averse that he will not attempt those passes.

Other marginal QBs will still attempt to give their best WR the opportunity to make plays, while Cassel is checkdown king.

This is why Cassel is the worst starting QB in the league.

It isn't about numbers.
It's about leadership and courage.

A receiver like Bowe, with even a marginal QB, is open if he's single covered and has just a yard or two of separation, unless you are Matt Cassel.

Just to expand on that, look no further than Junk time on Sunday. Bowe was covered, Cassel gave him a chance, Bowe leaped over the defender and snagged it out of the air.

Too bad Cassel feels that the only time to throw a risky pass in when the game is well out of reach.

[Black Bob]

Originally Posted by Pestilence

No....I really only do that to you. Maybe Setsuna every once in a while.

In 2007, You've got guys like Bobby Engram, Kevis Curtis, Braylon Edwards, old ass Joey Galloway in Tampa, and Jerrico Cotchery with 1,000 yards.

In 2008, you've got Santana Moss, Lee Evans, Antonio Bryant and Steve Breaston.

I'm not going to get into this to deep but you see my point. Every year about 25% of those 1,000 yard WRs come and go.

There really probably really isn't another position with that much turnover.