San Diego Joins the 21st Century supports gay marriage.

[Logical]

Do you know where your city stands. Would you support a Mayor that voted to suppurt gay marriage or would you try to recall him/her?

By Matthew T. Hall
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
6:19 p.m. September 19, 2007

Mayor Jerry Sanders reversed his position on gay marriage Wednesday, supporting it in emotional remarks punctuated by pauses, shaking sips of water and his wife's hand resting one time reassuringly on his back.
...

A day after staff members said Sanders would veto it, the mayor announced that he would sign a City Council resolution passed Tuesday that directed the City Attorney's Office to file a brief in support of gay marriage. The council voted 5-3 to send the brief to the state Supreme Court backing an end to the state's ban on same-sex marriage. Similar briefs have been sent by other cities, which like San Diego, are not directly involved in the case. Almost 200 people attended the council hearing on the issue, with gay marriage supporters arguing for equal treatment under the law, and opponents contending marriage should be between a man and a woman. “As I reflected on the choices that I had before me last night I could just not bring myself to tell an entire group of people in our community they were less important, less worthy or less deserving of the rights and responsibilities of marriage than anyone else simply because of their sexual orientation,” Sanders said. In a reference to his daughter and two staff members who are gay, he said, “I want for them the same thing that we all want for our loved ones, for each of them to find a mate whom they love deeply and loves them back, someone with whom they can grow old together and share life's experiences, and I want their relationships to be protected equally under the law.” In his 2005 mayoral campaign, Sanders said he supported civil unions and domestic partnerships but not gay marriage. “I have personally wrestled with that opinion ever since,” he said Wednesday his voice wavering. “My opinions on this issue have evolved significantly as I think the opinions of millions of Americans from all walks of life have.” In a nod to those who don't support gay marriage, he said, “I acknowledge that not all members of our community will agree or even understand.

[Anyong Bluth]

Originally Posted by scott free

Admittedly, i havent read the entire thread.

But, much like Phobia, i'm old fashioned about some things & raising kids is one of them.

Maybe they should be adopted to straight parents, perhaps they would find the needed love & support in a foster home until they reach adulthood.

For me it comes down to this, while i believe that this is America & people should be allowed to pursue any lifestyle they choose (as long as it doesnt affect others)...i & most of the rest of America believe that at the base level there is something inherently wrong with that lifestyle being upheld as a positive norm for kids.

To say that it wouldnt encourage a gay lifestyle in kids is being VERY disingenuos. It works for mommie & mommie...why not me???

You guys can slam me & 3/4 of the rest of the country all you want, its not going to change me or, im sure, 'them'.

No fault in being honest, and I will say that a happy home with a mom and dad would probably be ideal in giving kids a full experience of dealing with both sexes to a degree, but there's just no way I buy the idea of someone growing up and saying to themselves, "it works for mommy and mommy, so why not me"?

People are either straight, gay, or bi. I don't think having gay parents is going to dissuade one's internal persuasion. Every person on here probably has at least some salient memory of their 1st crush, or the when they recognized they were attracted to some one else. I, personally, knew from a VERY VERY young age that I was mesmerized by the opposite sex. In kindergarten I had 2 "girlfriends", one blonde and one brunette. I know it's pretty comical and what not, but my drive to seek the attention of women was without a doubt a simple natural instinct. No one told me and I didn't learn from anyone, that experience that every young straight boy has at some point in their life- the feeling you get when a girl you like smiles at you in a subtle, giddy, "the feeling's mutual, but what all does this mean way."

You can always be taught social skills and what not, but basic instincts, such as sexual drive, are primitive drives.

Man may be enlightened, but he is still just another animal.

[Easy 6]

Originally Posted by Cocina_Basement

No fault in being honest, and I will say that a happy home with a mom and dad would probably be ideal in giving kids a full experience of dealing with both sexes to a degree, but there's just no way I buy the idea of someone growing up and saying to themselves, "it works for mommy and mommy, so why not me"?

People are either straight, gay, or bi. I don't think having gay parents is going to dissuade one's internal persuasion. Every person on here probably has at least some salient memory of their 1st crush, or the when they recognized they were attracted to some one else. I, personally, knew from a VERY VERY young age that I was mesmerized by the opposite sex. In kindergarten I had 2 "girlfriends", one blonde and one brunette. I know it's pretty comical and what not, but my drive to seek the attention of women was without a doubt a simple natural instinct. No one told me and I didn't learn from anyone, that experience that every young straight boy has at some point in their life- the feeling you get when a girl you like smiles at you in a subtle, giddy, "the feeling's mutual, but what all does this mean way."

You can always be taught social skills and what not, but basic instincts, such as sexual drive, are primitive drives.

Man may be enlightened, but he is still just another animal.

Thanks for a thoughtful reply & not a bunch of put-downs.

But everything i've ever read or watched on the subject says that impressionable kids, can be, influenced to one side/degree or another.

I know exactly what you mean about natural impulses, thats why in pre-school i knocked a crayon off of the table so i could crawl down & get a look up the teachers dress (white panties w/ blue seagulls on'em). But i dont think that all kids are so hardwired. I think some kids are confused about themselves & a gay parent would be the tipping point.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Bugeater

So it wouldn't bother you that "Billy with two dads" is getting his ass kicked at school everyday? No child should be subjected to that.

Well it happens in California every day with out incident, though I assume that's "unheard of" in Nebraska. Not surprising.

Originally Posted by Bugeater

Sorry, but I simply don't believe it's just going to be "some" bullying. Any childs life in that situation would be a living hell. Perhaps someday we may get to the point where that's not the case, but we're sure as heck not there yet.

Living hell? WTF? ALL of the gay parent that I know are EXTREMELY successful. Like $500k per year or more. These children are privy to private schools, amazing neighborhoods and loving parents.

Children only behave the way they're taught to behave. Fortunately, I don't know of any circumstances similar to your fear.

Originally Posted by Bugeater

Are you going to deny homosexuality carries a greater stigma than someone of mixed races?

Stigma? Where the fuck do you live or should I say, what time period? There are "mixed" race children all over the country that don't deal with any "stigma". Apparently though, that "stigma" still exists in Nebraska. Not surprising.

Originally Posted by Bugeater

You're putting words in my mouth, where on earth did I say it was ok in a mixed-race situation? I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this, but I'm neither mixed race nor was I raised by gay parents so I honestly don't know if one would be truly worse than the other. I do believe we've come a lot farther when it comes to race than we have with homosexuality in this country, therefore the mixed race should less likely be a problem.

Problem. Heh. YOU and people like YOU are the problem.

Originally Posted by Phobia

The fact that kids might be picked upon for having gay "parents" is pretty low down my list of reasons why gays shouldn't be awarded children. Gay parents shouldn't be allowed to raise kids because parents are male and female. Even the term "Gay Parents" is an oxymoron. Gay parental figures can't be parents because they're simply not equipped to be parents. I'm no expert on this but it's my opinion. I don't care if it's PC or popular or what. I just don't feel it's right.

I like you very much, Mr. Phobia but I'm quite shocked at this response. I guess if I'd never come face-to-face with caring, kind, intelligent and successful gay couples, I might feel the same way. But trust me, it's better for these children live with loving parents of the same sex than live in foster care or an orphanage.

Keep in mind that not just any homosexual person or couple is going to want to adopt. It's very expensive to adopt a child and it's even more difficult for gays to go through the screening process. It's safe to say that gay couples who adopt want to raise a child as much or more than straight couple who adopt.

[HolmeZz]

Originally Posted by scott free

Admittedly, i havent read the entire thread.

But, much like Phobia, i'm old fashioned about some things & raising kids is one of them.

Maybe they should be adopted to straight parents, perhaps they would find the needed love & support in a foster home until they reach adulthood.

For me it comes down to this, while i believe that this is America & people should be allowed to pursue any lifestyle they choose (as long as it doesnt affect others)...i & most of the rest of America believe that at the base level there is something inherently wrong with that lifestyle being upheld as a positive norm for kids.

To say that it wouldnt encourage a gay, permissive lifestyle in kids is being VERY disingenuos. It works for mommie & mommie...why not me???

You guys can slam me & 3/4 of the rest of the country all you want, its not going to change me or, im sure, 'them'.

I highly doubt 3/4ths of the country opposes gay adoption.

[Easy 6]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Well it happens in California every day with out incident, though I assume that's "unheard of" in Nebraska. Not surprising.



Living hell? WTF? ALL of the gay parent that I know are EXTREMELY successful. Like $500k per year or more. These children are privy to private schools, amazing neighborhoods and loving parents.

Children only behave the way they're taught to behave. Fortunately, I don't know of any circumstances similar to your fear.



Stigma? Where the fuck do you live or should I say, what time period? There are "mixed" race children all over the country that don't deal with any "stigma". Apparently though, that "stigma" still exists in Nebraska. Not surprising.



Problem. Heh. YOU and people like YOU are the problem.



I like you very much, Mr. Phobia but I'm quite shocked at this response. I guess if I'd never come face-to-face with caring, kind, intelligent and successful gay couples, I might feel the same way. But trust me, it's better for these children live with loving parents of the same sex than live in foster care or an orphanage.

Keep in mind that not just any homosexual person or couple is going to want to adopt. It's very expensive to adopt a child and it's even more difficult for gays to go through the screening process. It's safe to say that gay couples who adopt want to raise a child as much or more than straight couple who adopt.

Dane, your incredibly snide responses to Bugs thoughts do not do you any favors.

Maybe you've been gone too long, but the midwest could hardly be more different from Cali...i mean, like polar opposites, and honestly California is NOT the moral compass of America...especially southern Cal. The views ARE different here, the people ARE different here...that may be negative for you, but thats the way it is.

I dont have a problem with you Dane, but southern Cal might as well be a foreign country...its THAT different from the rest of the America.

[Easy 6]

Originally Posted by HolmeZz

I highly doubt 3/4ths of the country opposes gay adoption.

I disagree strongly, but neither of us has any concrete facts to prove our stance.

[Anyong Bluth]

Originally Posted by scott free

Thanks for a thoughtful reply & not a bunch of put-downs.

But everything i've ever read or watched on the subject says that impressionable kids, can be, influenced to one side/degree or another.

I know exactly what you mean about natural impulses, thats why in pre-school i knocked a crayon off of the table so i could crawl down & get a look up the teachers dress (white panties w/ blue seagulls on'em). But i dont think that all kids are so hardwired. I think some kids are confused about themselves & a gay parent would be the tipping point.

Exactly. It's a common human response to say, everyone else is so susceptible to influence, but I'm not like that. Studies and people in advertising will attest to this. It's a natural response for people to feel they are above being swayed where they think the general populous will be. Truth is, you knew you were attracted to women.

Why is it so far-reaching to assume that gay people share the exact same experience, just towards the same sex?

Those that are confused are more likely the product of feeling social pressure from societal norms and/or their family to come out. Being ostracized is a very powerful deterrent, and probably causes more confusion than anything running through one's hardwiring.

There will be, of course, a segment of persons that are truly bisexual, or have gender identity issues that takes a long process of discovery and self-evaluation to fully figure out their place in life, and how they can best find a happy medium in life. A lot of people will simply see them as odd or unstable, but from a humanistic point of view, imagine the uncertainty and struggle they have to endure. No one likes to feel like they are on an island without any sense of direction, especially when your life path has little to no point of reference to help guide you.

I know gender-bending unsettles a lot of people, and even I will admit, its not an area that when confronted I'm just like, hey whatever. The reality is most people are unsettled by it, and its not wrong to have that reaction, but if you truly hold the idea of the pursuit of happiness as a strong value, you should at the least respect their life. I'm not expecting or pointing fingers at anyone, but if one took the time to sit down and pick anyone's brain that leads a different lifestyle, you might actually understanding it a bit better. Humanizing a group, race, or what not really can have a lasting impact in overcoming preconceived notions, ideals, and stereotypes.

We're all at fault in different aspects of our lives in propagating a less than perfect world, but those that at least make an attempt to explore and understand different viewpoints can at least not be accused of not attempting to better understand. At the end of the day, if you still can't grasp or accept it, I think one's is fully entitled to their opinion, so long as they aren't interfering in another's life in ways that they, themselves, are given full reign to chose to enjoy and live.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by scott free

Dane, your incredibly snide responses to Bugs thoughts do not do you any favors.

Maybe you've been gone too long, but the midwest could hardly be more different from Cali...i mean, like polar opposites, and honestly California is NOT the moral compass of America...especially southern Cal. The views ARE different here, the people ARE different here...that may be negative for you, but thats the way it is.

I dont have a problem with you Dane, but southern Cal might as well be a foreign country...its THAT different from the rest of the America.

Then I guess you better add NYC, Miami, Seattle and San Fran to your equation as well.

Trust, I'm all too familiar with the close-minded mentality of the plain states.

And it has nothing to do with morality.

[HolmeZz]

Originally Posted by scott free

I disagree strongly, but neither of us has any concrete facts to prove our stance.

It's legal in all but one state for a gay or lesbian person to adopt a kid. What difference does it make to you if that person happens to be in a relationship?

[Mr. Flopnuts]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Then I guess you better add NYC, Miami, Seattle and San Fran to your equation as well.

Trust, I'm all too familiar with the close-minded mentality of the plain states.

And it has nothing to do with morality.

I don't think we agree about much Dane, but we agree here I'm sure. I haven't even read this thread, but I can guess that you're here championing gay peoples rights to marry. I say why not? How does it affect you (you being the collective conscious of society) personally? Fact is, it doesn't. We just like telling people how they should live their lives. It's the American way no? Don't spout off about the message it sends kids either. We have plenty of stuff in society that we shield them from everyday. Teaching them that all people deserve the same respect should be paramount, unfortunately, it's just not.

[Easy 6]

Originally Posted by Cocina_Basement

Exactly. It's a common human response to say, everyone else is so susceptible to influence, but I'm not like that. Studies and people in advertising will attest to this. It's a natural response for people to feel they are above being swayed where they think the general populous will be. Truth is, you knew you were attracted to women.

Why is it so far-reaching to assume that gay people share the exact same experience, just towards the same sex?

Those that are confused are more likely the product of feeling social pressure from societal norms and/or their family to come out. Being ostracized is a very powerful deterrent, and probably causes more confusion than anything running through one's hardwiring.

There will be, of course, a segment of persons that are truly bisexual, or have gender identity issues that takes a long process of discovery and self-evaluation to fully figure out their place in life, and how they can best find a happy medium in life. A lot of people will simply see them as odd or unstable, but from a humanistic point of view, imagine the uncertainty and struggle they have to endure. No one likes to feel like they are on an island without any sense of direction, especially when your life path has little to no point of reference to help guide you.

I know gender-bending unsettles a lot of people, and even I will admit, its not an area that when confronted I'm just like, hey whatever. The reality is most people are unsettled by it, and its not wrong to have that reaction, but if you truly hold the idea of the pursuit of happiness as a strong value, you should at the least respect their life. I'm not expecting or pointing fingers at anyone, but if one took the time to sit down and pick anyone's brain that leads a different lifestyle, you might actually understanding it a bit better. Humanizing a group, race, or what not really can have a lasting impact in overcoming preconceived notions, ideals, and stereotypes.

We're all at fault in different aspects of our lives in propagating a less than perfect world, but those that at least make an attempt to explore and understand different viewpoints can at least not be accused of not attempting to better understand. At the end of the day, if you still can't grasp or accept it, I think one's is fully entitled to their opinion, so long as they aren't interfering in another's life in ways that they, themselves, are given full reign to chose to enjoy and live.

I agree with a bunch of this & not so much with the rest.

Nonetheless, a VERY well thought out & intelligent reply...thanks.

[Anyong Bluth]

Dane,

Your response is no more tolerant that those that oppose gay marriage or adoption. Making broad generalizations about people simply based upon location is just as stereotypical.

Taking an equally cut and dry approach to those unaccepting simply makes you just as unaccepting to other's right to their opinion.

If you really want to cause other's to reexamine their viewpoints, it will never be done by fighting venom with venom.

It is true though, that most gay couples that adopt or have kids are blue chip earners, usually highly educated. It's not like they are putting the kids to bed and rushing off to the nearest gay bar that is having a foam party to party down.

[Easy 6]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Then I guess you better add NYC, Miami, Seattle and San Fran to your equation as well.

Trust, I'm all too familiar with the close-minded mentality of the plain states.

And it has nothing to do with morality.

Dane, what you call close-minded, many if not most Americans call morally right.

The simple act of labeling them the 'plain states', speaks to your disdain for the region that raised you.

Honestly, i'll take the plainness of the midwest over much of the morally bankrupt horseshit i discovered while living in So-Cal.

I'm not here to declare i'm totally in the right, i am here to declare that just because you dont like it doesnt make it wrong...and of course you could say the same of me.

Suffice it to say, nobody wins this argument & never will.

[HolmeZz]

Originally Posted by scott free

Dane, what you call close-minded, many if not most Americans call morally right.

*minds business and doesn't bring up slavery*

It's a necessary evil, guys!

[Logical]

Originally Posted by scott free

Dane, what you call close-minded, many if not most Americans call morally right.

The simple act of labeling them the 'plain states', speaks to your disdain for the region that raised you.

Honestly, i'll take the plainness of the midwest over much of the morally bankrupt horseshit i discovered while living in So-Cal.

I'm not here to declare i'm totally in the right, i am here to declare that just because you dont like it doesnt make it wrong...and of course you could say the same of me.

Suffice it to say, nobody wins this argument & never will.

Scott, when I grew up the geography class referred to them as the Plain States in the text. I am pretty sure that is not a derogatory term, just a descriptor.