Very Confused about something guys... - Page 2

dallaschiefsfan · 12-03-2007, 10:19 AM

I just can't seem to reconcile the mixed messages I seem to hear about this team...from coaches, fans and pundits/experts.

1. Does this team lack talent or not? On one hand, I'm hearing Len Dawson, Herm and others basically say that the players on the field have to play (ie, coaches can't play for them). On the other hand, others speak about how our draft was great last year and that Herm is a good evaluator of talent. Which is it? Herm can't be that great of an evaluator if the guys he drafts can't play. Isn't it Herm/Carl's fault no matter which way you slice the pie? I can't see how this ever falls to the players--they can't help if they were drafted out of order or overpaid as free agents. My take on the talent: O-line definitely lacks talent. Macintosh is fine...just needs to be moved to RT...but we need a solid LT and a new RG. I'm not convinced Nicewonger is the answer at C. Regardless of one's opinions on whether this team lacks talent or not, in my mind, you elevate and build this team around preferred-player types. On defense, Jared Allen and Derrick Johnson are the guys you want the other guys feeding off of. On offense, it's still Tony G. (geeze...he showed SO MUCH "want" yesterday) and Duane Bowe. These players want to win BADLY...and we need more of their tribe.

2. Are we rebuilding or not? This one drives me nuts. I don't believe you can afford to rebuild in the NFL--you have to ALWAYS be rebuilding while you are always competing. I can't understand any other approach as being rational in today's NFL. San Francisco still seems destroyed by their inability to rebuild while they were competing. Having said that, I'm both confused by Herm's intention on moving the old guys (read, Vermeil's guys) out the door, while bringing in Carney. If you're going to develop some players, then develop a kicker. I remember our lack of patience with Saurbraun several years ago and how he became a great punter for other teams. Kickers are rarely "instantly good" in the NFL. Anyway...I can't seem to get a grasp on what we're doing...but "blowing it up" is stupid and not an option in today's NFL.

3. Is Herm a good NFL head coach or not? This is a question that can't be answered long-term...but we can at least evaluate where he is at this point in his career. He's showed an incredible penchant for turning around a terrible defense quickly. The defense still lacks when it comes to giving up the big play...but an improvement from the leaky defense of the Vermeil era. Herm has also instilled some toughness into the team (once again, mostly on defense). At this point, that still makes Herm nothing more than a great defensive coordinator. I'm most concerned about his inability to see a high scoring offense as something that could be coexistent with a great defense. This just seems myopic to me...and truly separates him from his friend Tony Dungy. When Tony came to Indy, he set out to fix the defense...but not at the expense of a machine of an offense. He kept the good OC and let's that unit operate how it operates best. Herm's seemingly blindness to this approach is disturbing. I know you can't compare Green/Manning or any of the other personnel for that matter...but we had a good system in place and seemed to get quite a bit out of guys that didn't necessarily shine in other systems. I feel like many things would have been different if Herm would have made a HUGE effort to keep Saunders OR get an equally quality OC. Instead he gets Solari...a line-guy. This was the first indication that he might never be a Tony Dungy. This could change, but Herm is officially a bust if we don't get a legit OC during the off-season.

kc rush · 12-03-2007, 10:49 AM

Carl can't justify the ticket prices if we are rebuilding, so we go through this half-assed process year after year and call it retooling.

**the Talking Can** · 12-03-2007, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dallaschiefsfan

2. Are we rebuilding or not?

I'm reposting myself from another thread, my apologies. But it's my response to the rebuilding question:

"This year was NOT a rebuilding year.

That lie needs to be put to rest. You don't rebuild by choosing to play Huard for half the season, and only benching him due to injury. The franchise and Herm said explicitly that they were trying to "win now."

A team that was actually rebuilding would have made their #1 priority the grooming of a QB. End of story.

This was a WASTED year. We know almost nothing about Croyle. We will have to make a decision, potentially, about whether or not to draft a top-10 QB while Croyle is just a big ??. The franchise and Herm are directly, and completely, responsible for this.

This SHOULD HAVE BEEN a rebuilding year. Croyle over Huard, Smith over Priest, Medlock over washed up vet kicker, etc. But it wasn't.

So, we'll have to do it next year. And we can only pray that they don't go out and get a vet QB. If they do this, the franchise is done. Another decade of mediocrity and losing.

Until we have a QB in place we are just floundering.

I trust Herm to evaluate talent...sort of. I don't trust him to build a structure, and system, in which that talent is maximized. And I believe strongly that his conservatism will never take us where we want to go.

He will upgrade the roster in terms of talent. But we will be looking for a new coach in 2 years. Someone who isn't stuck in the 70's. Because if we aren't building a team to compete with Belicheck and Dungy - meaning one that has a good defense AND an agressive, dynamic, offense - then we are still just wasting our time."

dallaschiefsfan · 12-03-2007, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the Talking Can

I'm reposting myself from another thread, my apologies. But it's my response to the rebuilding question:

"This year was NOT a rebuilding year.

That lie needs to be put to rest. You don't rebuild by choosing to play Huard for half the season, and only benching him due to injury. The franchise and Herm said explicitly that they were trying to "win now."

A team that was actually rebuilding would have made their #1 priority the grooming of a QB. End of story.

This was a WASTED year. We know almost nothing about Croyle. We will have to make a decision, potentially, about whether or not to draft a top-10 QB while Croyle is just a big ??. The franchise and Herm are directly, and completely, responsible for this.

This SHOULD HAVE BEEN a rebuilding year. Croyle over Huard, Smith over Priest, Medlock over washed up vet kicker, etc. But it wasn't.

So, we'll have to do it next year. And we can only pray that they don't go out and get a vet QB. If they do this, the franchise is done. Another decade of mediocrity and losing.

Until we have a QB in place we are just floundering.

I trust Herm to evaluate talent...sort of. I don't trust him to build a structure, and system, in which that talent is maximized. And I believe strongly that his conservatism will never take us where we want to go.

He will upgrade the roster in terms of talent. But we will be looking for a new coach in 2 years. Someone who isn't stuck in the 70's. Because if we aren't building a team to compete with Belicheck and Dungy - meaning one that has a good defense AND an agressive, dynamic, offense - then we are still just wasting our time."

I think this a solid evaluation..especially us looking for a new coach in 2 years. Herm might build a decent talent base for a better coach to maximize.

Whatever happened to Medlock? Did someone else put him on their practice squad?

Zouk · 12-03-2007, 11:10 AM

You can't draft like Vermeil/Stiles/Carl did for 4 years, give big signing bonuses to Kendrell Bell, Pat Surtain, Eric Hicks, and Greg Wesley, and magically expect to be a contender a few years later. The roster was badly mismanaged, and it will take 3 or 4 offseasons to fix it.

The first offseason the team let bad contracts expire and signed Ty Law to what in reality was only a 2 year stopgap contract. The second offseason, they signed a LT, drafted a WR and RB, and improved the D. The third offseason, the offense will be gutted and we'll add a corner and next year Croyle and Bowe will get a chance to play 16 games.

To rebuild correctly takes time.

Mr Luzcious · 12-03-2007, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOATSE

Solari was forced on Herm, FYI.

They seem like a match made in heaven to me.

12-03-2007, 10:19 AM
dallaschiefsfan Herm is the worst...horrible Join Date: Sep 2000 Casino cash: $3058850	Very Confused about something guys... I just can't seem to reconcile the mixed messages I seem to hear about this team...from coaches, fans and pundits/experts. 1. Does this team lack talent or not? On one hand, I'm hearing Len Dawson, Herm and others basically say that the players on the field have to play (ie, coaches can't play for them). On the other hand, others speak about how our draft was great last year and that Herm is a good evaluator of talent. Which is it? Herm can't be that great of an evaluator if the guys he drafts can't play. Isn't it Herm/Carl's fault no matter which way you slice the pie? I can't see how this ever falls to the players--they can't help if they were drafted out of order or overpaid as free agents. My take on the talent: O-line definitely lacks talent. Macintosh is fine...just needs to be moved to RT...but we need a solid LT and a new RG. I'm not convinced Nicewonger is the answer at C. Regardless of one's opinions on whether this team lacks talent or not, in my mind, you elevate and build this team around preferred-player types. On defense, Jared Allen and Derrick Johnson are the guys you want the other guys feeding off of. On offense, it's still Tony G. (geeze...he showed SO MUCH "want" yesterday) and Duane Bowe. These players want to win BADLY...and we need more of their tribe. 2. Are we rebuilding or not? This one drives me nuts. I don't believe you can afford to rebuild in the NFL--you have to ALWAYS be rebuilding while you are always competing. I can't understand any other approach as being rational in today's NFL. San Francisco still seems destroyed by their inability to rebuild while they were competing. Having said that, I'm both confused by Herm's intention on moving the old guys (read, Vermeil's guys) out the door, while bringing in Carney. If you're going to develop some players, then develop a kicker. I remember our lack of patience with Saurbraun several years ago and how he became a great punter for other teams. Kickers are rarely "instantly good" in the NFL. Anyway...I can't seem to get a grasp on what we're doing...but "blowing it up" is stupid and not an option in today's NFL. 3. Is Herm a good NFL head coach or not? This is a question that can't be answered long-term...but we can at least evaluate where he is at this point in his career. He's showed an incredible penchant for turning around a terrible defense quickly. The defense still lacks when it comes to giving up the big play...but an improvement from the leaky defense of the Vermeil era. Herm has also instilled some toughness into the team (once again, mostly on defense). At this point, that still makes Herm nothing more than a great defensive coordinator. I'm most concerned about his inability to see a high scoring offense as something that could be coexistent with a great defense. This just seems myopic to me...and truly separates him from his friend Tony Dungy. When Tony came to Indy, he set out to fix the defense...but not at the expense of a machine of an offense. He kept the good OC and let's that unit operate how it operates best. Herm's seemingly blindness to this approach is disturbing. I know you can't compare Green/Manning or any of the other personnel for that matter...but we had a good system in place and seemed to get quite a bit out of guys that didn't necessarily shine in other systems. I feel like many things would have been different if Herm would have made a HUGE effort to keep Saunders OR get an equally quality OC. Instead he gets Solari...a line-guy. This was the first indication that he might never be a Tony Dungy. This could change, but Herm is officially a bust if we don't get a legit OC during the off-season.
Posts: 2,033

12-03-2007, 10:49 AM	#16
kc rush Blah Blah Blah Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: In front of the computer. Casino cash: $2019559	Carl can't justify the ticket prices if we are rebuilding, so we go through this half-assed process year after year and call it retooling.
Posts: 12,593

12-03-2007, 11:10 AM	#19
Zouk Veteran Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: DC Casino cash: $10004900	You can't draft like Vermeil/Stiles/Carl did for 4 years, give big signing bonuses to Kendrell Bell, Pat Surtain, Eric Hicks, and Greg Wesley, and magically expect to be a contender a few years later. The roster was badly mismanaged, and it will take 3 or 4 offseasons to fix it. The first offseason the team let bad contracts expire and signed Ty Law to what in reality was only a 2 year stopgap contract. The second offseason, they signed a LT, drafted a WR and RB, and improved the D. The third offseason, the offense will be gutted and we'll add a corner and next year Croyle and Bowe will get a chance to play 16 games. To rebuild correctly takes time.
Posts: 1,454