Chiefs JoPo gives Herm one final blow - Page 2

Hammock Parties · 01-24-2009, 02:13 AM

Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. Who cares if he had to wait a week. He gets $3 million and a vacation. Big ****ing deal. I'm disgusted. The shot at Pioli was unnecessary.

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/chi...ry/998818.html
Herm had to go, but the delay was cruel

Scott Pioli really had no choice, and everyone knew it. He had to fire Herm Edwards. He had to give himself a fresh start. He had to start over with his own coach. He had to do it for a hundred different reasons, and Edwards’ 6-26 record the last couple of seasons was only one of them.

So, I’m not sure why it took 10 days for Pioli to pull the trigger. I’m not sure why he left Herm dangling out there for those 10 days while his assistant coaches fled like high school kids on graduation day. I’m not sure why the Chiefs would throw Herm overboard late on a Friday afternoon with a news release and a couple of pointless statements. I’m not sure what it says about an organization that it would treat a loyal man like that. Actually, I’m precisely sure what it says about the Chiefs.

Put it this way: Scott Pioli better win fast. He isn’t winning anyone over with his class.

In the end, I suspect, most people in town won’t care how Scott Pioli fired Herm Edwards, because most people just wanted Herm Edwards fired. Sports is a hard business and a cold game. People forget fast. Just one day earlier, Gunther Cunningham bolted for Detroit, where he gets to coach the one team that had a defense worse than his own. And he did not feel like he could leave without first shifting blame for his defense to Herm.

“I’ve gone through three years of playing zone defenses because I was loyal to Herm Edwards,” Cunningham said. “That’s what he wanted. People here in town knew that I was different than that. My idea is to put a lot of pressure on the quarterback — always has been, always will be.”

Key phrase in that statement: “was loyal.”

And how true was the statement anyway? In 2006, when Herm Edwards became head coach, he kept Gunther Cunningham on as his defensive coordinator.

This was despite the fact that the two years before Herm arrived, Cunningham’s defenses finished 31st and 25th in total defense. They weren’t playing zone then — the head coach was Dick Vermeil. and he would let his defensive coordinators do whatever the heck they wanted. Half the time, Vermeil didn’t even know the Chiefs had a defense (and half the time, he was right).

But that’s how it goes in sports: When a man gets down, people will kick. Nobody really wants to rehash this, but Herm Edwards walked into a raging hailstorm when he took over as Chiefs coach in 2006. The Chiefs were the worst kind of football team: They were old and refused to admit it. The Chiefs also had a uniquely inflated view of themselves, considering they had been to the playoffs exactly one time in eight years. Before Edwards coached his first game, his star left tackle, Willie Roaf, retired (even as the Chiefs begged him to come back). In Edwards’ first game, his quarterback, Trent Green, got knocked unconscious and he was never again an effective NFL quarterback. And, as already noted, the defense was awful.

Somehow, Edwards coaxed that team to a 9-7 record — that “zone” defense actually improved the Chiefs to 16th in defense — and they won an improbable playoff spot. True, the Chiefs promptly were humiliated by Indianapolis; but I’ve always thought that only made Edwards’ coaching job more impressive. As the old Groucho Marx line goes: How that team got into the playoffs, I’ll never know.

It was then that Edwards pleaded with people behind the scenes to let him blow things up. He knew the Chiefs were about to collapse. The secondary was ancient, and the offensive line was old enough to be the secondary’s father, and Larry Johnson was going to be tough to deal with, and Will Shields retired and the quarterback situation was a mess — and yes, Edwards could see it coming. But Chiefs president Carl Peterson was not ready to blow up anything. He did not even want to use the word rebuilding.

So, Edwards played the good soldier. He put his team in position to win games. The Chiefs were actually 4-3 at one point. And then, Larry Johnson got hurt, and reality set in and the Chiefs lost their last nine games.

Then Edwards was asked, finally, to blow things up. And the Chiefs did. They spent hardly any money in 2008 — they were $30 million under the salary cap. Edwards went to camp with rookies and free agents and guys who happened to be driving by River Falls and a couple of people who were in town for a wedding. Then a bunch of those guys got hurt, and the Chiefs added people named Wallace Gilberry and Rocky Boiman and Curtis Gatewood. The season went badly.

And this is not to say that Edwards did a great coaching job — he patently did not. There are no arguments after a 2-14 season. Many of the complaints people have about his game management are perfectly valid. But he did do what the Chiefs asked. He did fight through a season with an understaffed team. He did have his team competitive in numerous games. He did play the rookies and the kids, giving them experience. If Edwards was right about some of these players — if he was right about Branden Albert and Glenn Dorsey and Brandon Flowers and Brandon Carr and some of the other recent picks — then the Chiefs might improve quickly. If he was wrong, well, we’ll find that out quickly, too.

But the point is that he did give his life to the Chiefs the last three years. He did a lot of difficult and unpleasant things to make the Chiefs better. He did not deserve to twist in the wind. Sure, Pioli had to fire him, everyone could see that coming a week and a half ago. That’s why it should have happened a week and a half ago.

Edwards deserved that, at least.

LOCOChief · 01-24-2009, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

I'm sorry to inform Jopo of this, most markets aren't the nice friendly circle jerk that KC has become, Pioli has spent his entire career on the east coast...

There's a difference in class and being a market where no one ever really being held accountable is considered classy.

Personally I like the style Pioli brings from the east coast that has won, it's better than this shit that's been going on here.

Exactly, I've got a good feeling right now, one that I haven't had for this organization for years and maybe never.

We don't even have an HC, or QBOTF, D line but for some reason I'm thinking this team going to be very competetive very soon. May be because Clark is showing us he wouldn't have it any other way.

Coach · 01-24-2009, 07:24 AM

Hmm... a OK article. One of those rare moments where this one didn't really hit out of the park, that Joe is pretty much well known for.

chiefzilla1501 · 01-24-2009, 07:46 AM

I wouldn't say it was Pioli's fault nor his intention. Herm was just in the unfortunate situation of a new GM getting brought in late, which was obviously going to delay the head coaching decision.

That's where JoePo is wrong. On the other parts, he's dead right. I think a lot of people underestimate what he did. He may not be a great head coach, but he took a huge bullet for the team for enduring the rebuild, even knowing that he'd take a huge hit to his reputation. It's just a shame that the fans will never give him credit for that.

I'm glad we have the chance to hire the best coach on the market, but I wish him well.

Coach · 01-24-2009, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I wouldn't say it was Pioli's fault nor his intention. Herm was just in the unfortunate situation of a new GM getting brought in late, which was obviously going to delay the head coaching decision.

That's where JoePo is wrong. On the other parts, he's dead right. I think a lot of people underestimate what he did. He may not be a great head coach, but he took a huge bullet for the team for enduring the rebuild, even knowing that he'd take a huge hit to his reputation. It's just a shame that the fans will never give him credit for that.

I'm glad we have the chance to hire the best coach on the market, but I wish him well.

I disagree. Going 6-26 in two seasons, your reputation is ruined one way or another. I don't give credit to a coach who goes 6-26.

I'm glad he's gone. He has no business of being a NFL Head Coach, as it has been evidenced many times. At best, he's just a position coach, or a scout.

Lonewolf Ed · 01-24-2009, 07:51 AM

So, really, loyalty is the only thing Herm had going in his favor. Yippee.

beach tribe · 01-24-2009, 07:54 AM

This is the biggest crybaby bullshit bitch thread I have ever seen. This is the NFL. Win, or GTFO.

chiefzilla1501 · 01-24-2009, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach

I disagree. Going 6-26 in two seasons, your reputation is ruined one way or another.

I'm glad he's gone. He has no business of being a NFL Head Coach, as it has been evidenced many times. At best, he's just a position coach, or a scout.

But the point is that he could have begged the front office to buy every big free agent in the market like Brett Favre and to keep road-graders like Casey Wiegmann and Napoleon Harris. That would have saved his reputation by buying him a few more wins. That was the old "Chiefs Way". But he chose instead to blow the team up even if he knew that would lead to a losing season.

No matter how much people hate him, he deserves credit for forcing the team to blow the roster up and aggressively move to a rebuild. I bet you that the moves we made over the last year are a big reason why Pioli is sitting on top right now.

beach tribe · 01-24-2009, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I wouldn't say it was Pioli's fault nor his intention. Herm was just in the unfortunate situation of a new GM getting brought in late, which was obviously going to delay the head coaching decision.

That's where JoePo is wrong. On the other parts, he's dead right. I think a lot of people underestimate what he did. He may not be a great head coach, but he took a huge bullet for the team for enduring the rebuild, even knowing that he'd take a huge hit to his reputation. It's just a shame that the fans will never give him credit for that.

I'm glad we have the chance to hire the best coach on the market, but I wish him well.

I agree with Tony G. There's a lot of games we could have won, and Herm is the reason we didn't. I hope Herm goes on to be a successful DB coach. That's what he is, and that's what he should be.

beach tribe · 01-24-2009, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

But the point is that he could have begged the front office to buy every big free agent in the market like Brett Favre and to keep road-graders like Casey Wiegmann and Napoleon Harris. That would have saved his reputation by buying him a few more wins. That was the old "Chiefs Way". But he chose instead to blow the team up even if he knew that would lead to a losing season.

No matter how much people hate him, he deserves credit for forcing the team to blow the roster up and aggressively move to a rebuild. I bet you that the moves we made over the last year are a big reason why Pioli is sitting on top right now.

I believe that Clark wanted to do that just as much as Herm. Blow it up I mean.

chiefzilla1501 · 01-24-2009, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beach tribe

I agree with Tony G. There's a lot of games we could have won, and Herm is the reason we didn't. I hope Herm goes on to be a successful DB coach. That's what he is, and that's what he should be.

No, I fully agree that Herm's inability to coach the game would have always kept him from being a Super Bowl coach.

But the point is that he doesn't get any credit for making what was a very bold move and one that really hurt his reputation with fans. It may have been really uncomfortable for fans, but the rebuild was the right move and it sounds like almost everybody in the media is saying that Peterson didn't want to do it, Herm wanted to do it earlier, and it was finally Herm who forced Clark Hunt to do something about it.

It sounds to me like Herm forced the rebuild, got Hunt to realize that Peterson was holding back the team ultimately leading to his firing, and that Herm's rebuild was probably a large reason why Pioli viewed KC as an ideal landing spot. Even his haters will find it hard to deny that even if he wasn't a great coach, he definitely was a big part of steering this team in the right direction.

chiefzilla1501 · 01-24-2009, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beach tribe

I believe that Clark wanted to do that just as much as Herm. Blow it up I mean.

I don't know that we know that. Clark Hunt was largely hands off when he first came in, and it doesn't explain why in 2006 and 2007 Peterson was still powerful enough to resist the rebuild at all costs.

Based on decisions in 2006 and 2007, it seemed pretty clear Peterson was calling all the shots. And based on everything we've read, this is something that Herm was constantly battling with Peterson to not do. Most signs seem to indicate that Herm's bickering with Peterson was a large reason why he was able to get Hunt on board with the idea of rebuilding, which forced the team to finally go over CP's head to make some team decisions.

We all knew Hunt wasn't overly involved with the team. The Hunts usually aren't. I believe that Herm was a big part of forcing Hunt to get involved, and I think that's a huge reason why Hunt was so reluctant to fire him.

**the Talking Can** · 01-24-2009, 08:16 AM

what a pointless article....

Poz wants to pretend that he's a good guy - even though he led the charge to fire Herm - and that Pioli is a bad guy....for doing exactly what Clark wanted, exactly the way Clark wanted it done?

there's a reason Pioli is making millions...he's paid for results, period...cram your feelings up your ass...that goes double for Gonzo or anyone else who wants to cry about the Chiefs trying to win now instead of trying to just cash checks and pass the blame...don't like it? Then leave. Get out.

Herm gets paid 4 mill a year to suck ass and we're supposed to feel sorry for the guy...yeah, uh, no...he stole every ****ing penny

Redrum_69 · 01-24-2009, 08:17 AM

Just wait. Whoever takes hold of the reins...it will still be 3-5 years before this team has a shot. According to most of you..we need a QB. We also need alot of key pieces in the defense filled by probowl caliber players aquired in the draft or free agency. If they come from the draft...thats at least 2-3 years. If we draft a QB this year...whose he going to learn under? Damon Huard? WOuld the rookie QB learn how to take a hit from Brodie Croyle? Will he learn how to play the game from Thigpen? Not every rookie QB is a Flacco.

Then...now that Herm is gone...a new coach will come in and change the play calling. Also a new defensive coach will come in and clean house changing all the plays as well. Those two obstacles will also tack on a minimum of 2-3 years for sure. Not every team can pull off a Miami Dolphin Playoff spot.

And finally....we'll get to see how Herm's draft picks pan out over that time frame as well. Maybe they all turn out to be great....what will say of Herm then. But if the draftees dont pan out thats still a few more seasons of 2-14 or worse to secure more draft picks.

Basically...we should have given Herm at least one more year. Every year he has been here he had to do things Carl's way. Now that Herm got Carl out of the office...you all throw Herm under the bus. Mark my words, you Chiefsplanet Fair Weather Fans...things will get worse. Whats gonna happen when the next coach comes in and has a 1-15 or a 0-16 record this year or the next?

**cdcox** · 01-24-2009, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

No, I fully agree that Herm's inability to coach the game would have always kept him from being a Super Bowl coach.

But the point is that he doesn't get any credit for making what was a very bold move and one that really hurt his reputation with fans. It may have been really uncomfortable for fans, but the rebuild was the right move and it sounds like almost everybody in the media is saying that Peterson didn't want to do it, Herm wanted to do it earlier, and it was finally Herm who forced Clark Hunt to do something about it.

This is like going to a restaurant and getting a really bad meal. Everyone starts bashing the chef, and you defend him by saying he hasn't been given credit for insisting to management that the restaurant start using really good, fresh ingredients. If the guy can't cook, the high quality ingredients are wasted. Another chef can put the good ingredients to better use.

Herm wasn't wrong about needing to refresh the talent on the team. He was just the wrong guy to coach it.

**the Talking Can** · 01-24-2009, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redrum_69

Just wait. Whoever takes hold of the reins...it will still be 3-5 years before this team has a shot. According to most of you..we need a QB. We also need alot of key pieces in the defense filled by probowl caliber players aquired in the draft or free agency. If they come from the draft...thats at least 2-3 years. If we draft a QB this year...whose he going to learn under? Damon Huard? WOuld the rookie QB learn how to take a hit from Brodie Croyle? Will he learn how to play the game from Thigpen? Not every rookie QB is a Flacco.

Then...now that Herm is gone...a new coach will come in and change the play calling. Also a new defensive coach will come in and clean house changing all the plays as well. Those two obstacles will also tack on a minimum of 2-3 years for sure. Not every team can pull off a Miami Dolphin Playoff spot.

And finally....we'll get to see how Herm's draft picks pan out over that time frame as well. Maybe they all turn out to be great....what will say of Herm then. But if the draftees dont pan out thats still a few more seasons of 2-14 or worse to secure more draft picks.

Basically...we should have given Herm at least one more year. Every year he has been here he had to do things Carl's way. Now that Herm got Carl out of the office...you all throw Herm under the bus. Mark my words, you Chiefsplanet Fair Weather Fans...things will get worse. Whats gonna happen when the next coach comes in and has a 1-15 or a 0-16 record this year or the next?

that's too much stupid for a Saturday morning

01-24-2009, 02:13 AM
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $700478	JoPo gives Herm one final blow Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. Who cares if he had to wait a week. He gets $3 million and a vacation. Big **ing deal. I'm disgusted. The shot at Pioli was unnecessary. http://www.kansascity.com/sports/chi...ry/998818.html Herm had to go, but the delay was cruel** Scott Pioli really had no choice, and everyone knew it. He had to fire Herm Edwards. He had to give himself a fresh start. He had to start over with his own coach. He had to do it for a hundred different reasons, and Edwards’ 6-26 record the last couple of seasons was only one of them. So, I’m not sure why it took 10 days for Pioli to pull the trigger. I’m not sure why he left Herm dangling out there for those 10 days while his assistant coaches fled like high school kids on graduation day. I’m not sure why the Chiefs would throw Herm overboard late on a Friday afternoon with a news release and a couple of pointless statements. I’m not sure what it says about an organization that it would treat a loyal man like that. Actually, I’m precisely sure what it says about the Chiefs. Put it this way: Scott Pioli better win fast. He isn’t winning anyone over with his class. In the end, I suspect, most people in town won’t care how Scott Pioli fired Herm Edwards, because most people just wanted Herm Edwards fired. Sports is a hard business and a cold game. People forget fast. Just one day earlier, Gunther Cunningham bolted for Detroit, where he gets to coach the one team that had a defense worse than his own. And he did not feel like he could leave without first shifting blame for his defense to Herm. “I’ve gone through three years of playing zone defenses because I was loyal to Herm Edwards,” Cunningham said. “That’s what he wanted. People here in town knew that I was different than that. My idea is to put a lot of pressure on the quarterback — always has been, always will be.” Key phrase in that statement: “was loyal.” And how true was the statement anyway? In 2006, when Herm Edwards became head coach, he kept Gunther Cunningham on as his defensive coordinator. This was despite the fact that the two years before Herm arrived, Cunningham’s defenses finished 31st and 25th in total defense. They weren’t playing zone then — the head coach was Dick Vermeil. and he would let his defensive coordinators do whatever the heck they wanted. Half the time, Vermeil didn’t even know the Chiefs had a defense (and half the time, he was right). But that’s how it goes in sports: When a man gets down, people will kick. Nobody really wants to rehash this, but Herm Edwards walked into a raging hailstorm when he took over as Chiefs coach in 2006. The Chiefs were the worst kind of football team: They were old and refused to admit it. The Chiefs also had a uniquely inflated view of themselves, considering they had been to the playoffs exactly one time in eight years. Before Edwards coached his first game, his star left tackle, Willie Roaf, retired (even as the Chiefs begged him to come back). In Edwards’ first game, his quarterback, Trent Green, got knocked unconscious and he was never again an effective NFL quarterback. And, as already noted, the defense was awful. Somehow, Edwards coaxed that team to a 9-7 record — that “zone” defense actually improved the Chiefs to 16th in defense — and they won an improbable playoff spot. True, the Chiefs promptly were humiliated by Indianapolis; but I’ve always thought that only made Edwards’ coaching job more impressive. As the old Groucho Marx line goes: How that team got into the playoffs, I’ll never know. It was then that Edwards pleaded with people behind the scenes to let him blow things up. He knew the Chiefs were about to collapse. The secondary was ancient, and the offensive line was old enough to be the secondary’s father, and Larry Johnson was going to be tough to deal with, and Will Shields retired and the quarterback situation was a mess — and yes, Edwards could see it coming. But Chiefs president Carl Peterson was not ready to blow up anything. He did not even want to use the word rebuilding. So, Edwards played the good soldier. He put his team in position to win games. The Chiefs were actually 4-3 at one point. And then, Larry Johnson got hurt, and reality set in and the Chiefs lost their last nine games. Then Edwards was asked, finally, to blow things up. And the Chiefs did. They spent hardly any money in 2008 — they were $30 million under the salary cap. Edwards went to camp with rookies and free agents and guys who happened to be driving by River Falls and a couple of people who were in town for a wedding. Then a bunch of those guys got hurt, and the Chiefs added people named Wallace Gilberry and Rocky Boiman and Curtis Gatewood. The season went badly. And this is not to say that Edwards did a great coaching job — he patently did not. There are no arguments after a 2-14 season. Many of the complaints people have about his game management are perfectly valid. But he did do what the Chiefs asked. He did fight through a season with an understaffed team. He did have his team competitive in numerous games. He did play the rookies and the kids, giving them experience. If Edwards was right about some of these players — if he was right about Branden Albert and Glenn Dorsey and Brandon Flowers and Brandon Carr and some of the other recent picks — then the Chiefs might improve quickly. If he was wrong, well, we’ll find that out quickly, too. But the point is that he did give his life to the Chiefs the last three years. He did a lot of difficult and unpleasant things to make the Chiefs better. He did not deserve to twist in the wind. Sure, Pioli had to fire him, everyone could see that coming a week and a half ago. That’s why it should have happened a week and a half ago. Edwards deserved that, at least.
Posts: 297,680

01-24-2009, 07:24 AM	#17
Coach Champs! Join Date: Mar 2004 Casino cash: $3668476	Hmm... a OK article. One of those rare moments where this one didn't really hit out of the park, that Joe is pretty much well known for. __________________ Super Bowl IV, LIV, LVII & LVIII Champions 2020, 2021, 2023, 2024, & 2025 AFC Champions 1985 & 2015 Major League Baseball World Series Champions 1980, 1985, 2014, & 2015 Major League Baseball American League Champions 2015 American League Central Division Champs
Posts: 54,708

01-24-2009, 07:46 AM	#18
chiefzilla1501 In Search of a Life Join Date: Aug 2008 Casino cash: $-1865503	I wouldn't say it was Pioli's fault nor his intention. Herm was just in the unfortunate situation of a new GM getting brought in late, which was obviously going to delay the head coaching decision. That's where JoePo is wrong. On the other parts, he's dead right. I think a lot of people underestimate what he did. He may not be a great head coach, but he took a huge bullet for the team for enduring the rebuild, even knowing that he'd take a huge hit to his reputation. It's just a shame that the fans will never give him credit for that. I'm glad we have the chance to hire the best coach on the market, but I wish him well.
Posts: 51,709

01-24-2009, 07:51 AM	#20
Lonewolf Ed Veteran Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Olathe, KS Casino cash: $10606233	So, really, loyalty is the only thing Herm had going in his favor. Yippee.
Posts: 3,774

01-24-2009, 07:54 AM	#21
beach tribe Keep doubting J MFing Houston Join Date: May 2007 Location: ft.lauderdale Casino cash: $3868036	This is the biggest crybaby bullshit bitch thread I have ever seen. This is the NFL. Win, or GTFO.
Posts: 21,429

01-24-2009, 08:16 AM	#27
the Talking Can Supporter Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: street Casino cash: $9072208	what a pointless article.... Poz wants to pretend that he's a good guy - even though he led the charge to fire Herm - and that Pioli is a bad guy....for doing exactly what Clark wanted, exactly the way Clark wanted it done? there's a reason Pioli is making millions...he's paid for results, period...cram your feelings up your ass...that goes double for Gonzo or anyone else who wants to cry about the Chiefs trying to win now instead of trying to just cash checks and pass the blame...don't like it? Then leave. Get out. Herm gets paid 4 mill a year to suck ass and we're supposed to feel sorry for the guy...yeah, uh, no...he stole every **ing penny __________________ Clark Hunt: "Thank god for the Dominican pool boy"**
Posts: 51,585

01-24-2009, 08:17 AM	#28
Redrum_69 Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: your nightmares Casino cash: $10004900	Just wait. Whoever takes hold of the reins...it will still be 3-5 years before this team has a shot. According to most of you..we need a QB. We also need alot of key pieces in the defense filled by probowl caliber players aquired in the draft or free agency. If they come from the draft...thats at least 2-3 years. If we draft a QB this year...whose he going to learn under? Damon Huard? WOuld the rookie QB learn how to take a hit from Brodie Croyle? Will he learn how to play the game from Thigpen? Not every rookie QB is a Flacco. Then...now that Herm is gone...a new coach will come in and change the play calling. Also a new defensive coach will come in and clean house changing all the plays as well. Those two obstacles will also tack on a minimum of 2-3 years for sure. Not every team can pull off a Miami Dolphin Playoff spot. And finally....we'll get to see how Herm's draft picks pan out over that time frame as well. Maybe they all turn out to be great....what will say of Herm then. But if the draftees dont pan out thats still a few more seasons of 2-14 or worse to secure more draft picks. Basically...we should have given Herm at least one more year. Every year he has been here he had to do things Carl's way. Now that Herm got Carl out of the office...you all throw Herm under the bus. Mark my words, you Chiefsplanet Fair Weather Fans...things will get worse. Whats gonna happen when the next coach comes in and has a 1-15 or a 0-16 record this year or the next?
Posts: 6,358