Mathieu v. Ward: Who Ya Got?

[Direckshun]

I think we all doubt the Chiefs can re-sign both of these players.

So if you had to re-sign either of these players this coming offseason and let the other walk, which one and why?

[CatfishBob2]

I get the feeling that the team really wants to keep him around. But I don't know about paying a premium price for a player at his age and stature. Pretty soon he won't be able to overcome his physical limitations with athletic ability. Hell we might be starting to see it on these pics he's missing by a step

[poolboy]

we need both....although I think Sneed can do it all at this point
He was a safety in college

[Direckshun]

Originally Posted by el borracho

We just blew up our entire O Line and started three rookies, all next to each other. We can definitely lose Clark, Hitchens and Mathieu and be just fine.

Spags defense needs a great D Line to function. Put your resources there.

The difference is that Mahomes called Matthieu when we signed him and said “I’ve got the offense, you’ve got the defense.”

This defense has a lot of good players but who’s “got the defense” when Badger walks? There’s no heir apparent in that regard, though obviously I’m not in the locker room. But Chris Jones is not that guy — simply being amazing at your job does not make you a great leader, ask Justin Houston in 2017 as he tried and failed to contain Marcus Peters with Eric Berry on IR.

[Hammock Parties]

Neither. Just move on. Veach is really good with this position group.

[Rasputin]

I think Ward is the most improved defensive player or took a leap this year if he continues to improve he'd be worth it but dang HB leadership I just don't know how much shelf life he has left.

[chiefzilla1501]

I really like our corners. But you have to start to trust that spags just has an incredible ability to develop CBs. Interestingly we havent had nearly as much success with developing young safeties. If we did Sorensen wouldn't be getting so many reps. I think Mathieu has given plenty of reasons to not bring him back. But without a doubt ward is more expendable.

[RunKC]

From a cap perspective a similar deal to his current one looks ideal

Year 1-$5.9 million
Year 2-$16.3 million
Year 3-$19.7 million (can cut and save $14.8 million)

So basically it’s 1 year of a big cap hit if we do that. Sounds good to me

[The Franchise]

I’m not keeping Mathieu. Has he been great? Yeah. But he’s 30+ and he’s going to start declining at some point. No thanks.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by jd1020

So it's hard to argue but then you follow it up with the main argument. Interesting strategy.

How good was the defense with Mathieu on the field and 0 pass rush?

How good is the defense with a pass rush?

What kind of impact is Mathieu having in the defense since the Chiefs started getting pressure on the QB?



We really think the most likely option is to pay a safety for a handful of tackles and 1 PD every 4-5 weeks over a pass rush?

If Mathieu was going to put pen to paper for just above an average salary, he wouldn't be due to enter FA at the end of the year.

What's an average safety get in FA these days? Like half of what he's bringing in now, maybe even quite a bit less than that? There's only 18 safeties in the NFL averaging more than $7M. The last time a team asked Tyrann to take a pay cut for his diminishing play on the field they had to release him because he told them to **** off.

Mathieu said he was disrespected by Jamal Adams deal. Maybe he wasn't asking for as much as him but he clearly thinks hes better than him and he got as much as he did. Whether or not Mathieu becomes the highest paid safety in the league, it's clear he's going to want to be paid as one of the best, and it's also clear that most teams aren't shelling out that kind of dough for a safety.

are you just looking for an argument?

What I meant is that you can't argue against the importance of the front four. As your front four goes, so goes the rest of your defense.

I think we've seen first hand evidence, don't you?

As for Mathieu wanting big money-of course he does. It's the length of the deal that would give me pause-Even Adams deal is 4/$70m. So what, an average of $17.5? (I have no idea how the deal is structured and don't really care). At Mathieu's age and injury history I wouldn't want to do anything that long.

There's a noticeable difference between the salaries of corners and safeties. Jalen Ramsey's 5/$100m deal, for example.

If you want to keep Ward and let Mathieu walk, there's totally an argument to be made there, but the financial difference won't be huge. A solid starting corner in his prime years will be nearly as expensive as an elite safety. I'd bet Ward's next deal will be within a couple of million of Mathieu's per season. If you think Ward is as impactful to our defense as Mathieu is...well, I don't know what to tell you. Watch closer, I guess.

My position (which you seem to have misunderstood entirely) was that:

1) The defensive line is paramount. Everything stems from success up front.

2) Corners are OVERvalued in the NFL, because the rules favor the offense so much I don't think Corners are worth 2nd contract the cap hit.

3) Versatile Safeties are UNDERvalued as they can affect the defense in so many ways. Yet they're paid less than Corners.


Personally? I'm fine with moving on from both Ward AND Matheiu this off-season although I doubt The Chiefs do that. But if I have to pay ONE of them, just on principle, I'd pay Mathieu but I'd do it on a 3 year deal that you can get out of after 2. I wouldn't go any longer than that.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by The Franchise

I’m not keeping Mathieu. Has he been great? Yeah. But he’s 30+ and he’s going to start declining at some point. No thanks.

Totally valid position.

I'm not sure I want to pay either player, but the question was posed as either/or.

[Direckshun]

If Ward falls off some, I can see us inking him to 10m/year.

If he keeps playing like he has, though, some garbage team that thinks it can rebuild itself into a defense-first powerhouse like Detroit is going to break the bank for him.

Ward, I think, will run us 14m/year. Mathieu will be 16m/year? 17m?

Whose job most justifies that level of cap commitment? And who is harder to replace?

Mathieu wins both of those questions, I feel.

[kccrow]

I'm going to approach this as best I can by taking his drama out of it...

I don't know that you can quantify what Ward brings relative to what Tyrann brings to the table as they are completely different skill sets but I'll do my best to. I do question the amount to be willing to give Mathieu.

Mathieu functions primarily as a really good slot, maybe the best in the NFL. Most slot guys cap out at around 6m per. His ability to get home on the blitz is a bonus that a lot of slot guys don't bring a team so I give him an added bonus there. Is that reason to give him 17 per? What's funny, is the Chiefs have another guy on the roster that does these top two functions well in Sneed and it's the biggest reason I advocate for Sneed to take over the Mathieu role with Fenton and Ward on the outside.

In most NFL defenses, the safeties make the alignments so he's not special in that regard. He's given a lot of credit for this here and I really don't think of it as a big deal. Is it positive? Sure, but it's just not special.

I also think far too much is given about leadership but yeah, give him a bump there. His message may start getting old for a lot of the guys though, especially since he didn't do himself any favors with team perception this season throwing his hands up in disgust every time a teammate ****ed up. I think you very seriously have to consider this. Unfortunately, we can't fully gauge how others on the team feel about that but I think you'd get mixed reactions and answers.

I do understand the concept of market value. If the market dictates you need to pay this guy 17m per to keep him around, then you also have to question whether or not it's worth it.

The Chiefs play Sneed all over the place too. He's not just on the outside. He's closer to Mathieu in his role than he is to a pure outside CB like Ward. I don't understand how/why people are against moving him permanently into Mathieu's role and going out and getting another CB?

And with Sneed at least as your safety net, there are some other options available in free agency. Would it not be wise to test the waters before committing 17m per to Mathieu?

Then you're looking at the decision to keep Ward or value him in relation to Mathieu as the counter. Ward is 25 years old and turning into one of the better corners. He impacts the defense positively, we have seen that since his return. Do I want to throw away a very good CB in his prime for a safety, no matter how good that safety might be? Good CBs aren't that easy to get your hands on. We saw when Ward was out that its more difficult to mask deficiencies when you have two inexperienced and/or lesser skilled corners on the field at the same time. It did run lock-step with other deficiencies so it's even more difficult to quantify the overall effect but there was one with more instances of receivers breaking deep and forcing over-the-top breakdowns.

I think it's as much, if not more of a mistake, to get rid of a really good young corner. It seems like you can get those slot safeties a bit more these days... Darnell Savage, Jordan Whitehead, Jimmie Ward, Antoine Winfield Jr., etc.

[Megatron96]

I guess I don’t see the argument here. I honey badger is a better athlete and a better football player and has a much higher football IQ than Ward, period. Seems pretty simple to me. And I like ward, but it’s much easier to replace ward than it is to replace Tyrann.

And I could care less about the social media stuff. I don’t pay any attention to it in the first place, and I honestly don’t get why anybody else does. It has the same relevance to football as worrying about what color underwear Andy Reid wears to the games. Which is to say absolutely nothing.

[Buehler445]

There is some good discussion here. Appreciate it not devolving into ****tardery.

I'm not smart enough to come to any conclusions here, but I have some observations.

I've said for a long time you can't have any weaknesses your you'll just get picked on. *cough*SORENSEN*cough cough*. Accordingly, we have to take a holistic approach. It's not a Mathieu vs Ward discussion it's a whole defense thing. That lends itself to a more even distribution of cap, vs a few big stars and scrubs. I don't know where the market is for these guys, but that probably doesn't bode well for Mathieu.

Another thing I noticed when the team was getting fisted by the run Mathieu was ... a problem. Hes' really big on tackling the ball rather than the runner. that's not a terrible approach because that can lead to fumbles. Problem is he didn't get any, and godDAMN did we need a stop. I really think several drives could have been stopped with a guy that would run downhill and make a hit. He (and everybody else! ) was standing waiting for the runner, rather than running downhill, closing the angle and making the tackle.

Now, since Bolton and Gay came in and the DL decided not to be ****s, it hasn't mattered, because, goddamn it, the FS shouldn't be your main tackler. But it is there. Probably not an issue in my book.

Regarding the messaging, it should go into the dynamic, but who the **** knows what's happening in the locker room. I gotta trust Reid here. He lets shit go maybe more than I'd want but in all his time I don't think he's ever let any lockerroom get away from him. I think another component you need to worry about regarding his attitude/leadership is if he declines athletically and is the guy getting beat. Again - Reid/Spags, but it's an issue.

I think the contract is also important. I wouldn't want to not be able to get out of it after 2 years. I'm guessing we won't bet able to come together on a reasonable contract, so it probably doesn't matter.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by kccrow

I'm going to approach this as best I can by taking his drama out of it...

I don't know that you can quantify what Ward brings relative to what Tyrann brings to the table as they are completely different skill sets but I'll do my best to. I do question the amount to be willing to give Mathieu.

Mathieu functions primarily as a really good slot, maybe the best in the NFL. Most slot guys cap out at around 6m per. His ability to get home on the blitz is a bonus that a lot of slot guys don't bring a team so I give him an added bonus there. Is that reason to give him 17 per? What's funny, is the Chiefs have another guy on the roster that does these top two functions well in Sneed and it's the biggest reason I advocate for Sneed to take over the Mathieu role with Fenton and Ward on the outside.

In most NFL defenses, the safeties make the alignments so he's not special in that regard. He's given a lot of credit for this here and I really don't think of it as a big deal. Is it positive? Sure, but it's just not special.

I also think far too much is given about leadership but yeah, give him a bump there. His message may start getting old for a lot of the guys though, especially since he didn't do himself any favors with team perception this season throwing his hands up in disgust every time a teammate ****ed up. I think you very seriously have to consider this. Unfortunately, we can't fully gauge how others on the team feel about that but I think you'd get mixed reactions and answers.

I do understand the concept of market value. If the market dictates you need to pay this guy 17m per to keep him around, then you also have to question whether or not it's worth it.

The Chiefs play Sneed all over the place too. He's not just on the outside. He's closer to Mathieu in his role than he is to a pure outside CB like Ward. I don't understand how/why people are against moving him permanently into Mathieu's role and going out and getting another CB?

And with Sneed at least as your safety net, there are some other options available in free agency. Would it not be wise to test the waters before committing 17m per to Mathieu?

Then you're looking at the decision to keep Ward or value him in relation to Mathieu as the counter. Ward is 25 years old and turning into one of the better corners. He impacts the defense positively, we have seen that since his return. Do I want to throw away a very good CB in his prime for a safety, no matter how good that safety might be? Good CBs aren't that easy to get your hands on. We saw when Ward was out that its more difficult to mask deficiencies when you have two inexperienced and/or lesser skilled corners on the field at the same time. It did run lock-step with other deficiencies so it's even more difficult to quantify the overall effect but there was one with more instances of receivers breaking deep and forcing over-the-top breakdowns.

I think it's as much, if not more of a mistake, to get rid of a really good young corner. It seems like you can get those slot safeties a bit more these days... Darnell Savage, Jordan Whitehead, Jimmie Ward, Antoine Winfield Jr., etc.

One of the knocks on Mathieu that I remember seeing pre-draft was that he 'doesn't have a position'. He's kind of a 'tweener'; part slot corner, part strong safety. That in and of itself isn't all that special, and can indeed be a liability except that his football intelligence is absolutely off the charts. I don't think you can just plug a slot corner in there and expect the same results. He's a strong safety nearly always lined up on the strong side of the offense, he just happens to have slot corner coverage skills. If he has a weakness, it would be that he's just so small that he's a willing but not the best run defender. If you can get out there with a blocker he's toast.

That being said, I'm not necessarily AGAINST letting him walk this offseason, and I don't think we SHOULD re-sign Ward. I think CB is a position we need to keep drafting, developing, and replacing. I don't think we should pay CB's that second contract premium as I don't think with the rules being the way they are they are worth the percentage of cap that the position demands.

I would rather sign a solid but less expensive vet to man Mathieu's spot, and I would sign another bargain guy like Breeland AND draft another mid-rounder. I think CB is one spot that Veach, Spags, and Madison have done a masterful job at considering very minor investment. They're great at finding corners and coaching them up, so let's keep doing that.

I won't be mad if they re-sign either Ward OR Mathieu but I'm not sure that's that's the best use of cap dollars in either case.

I probably wouldn't. But if I have to choose, I'd take Mathieu.