DT Preference Question

[Couch-Potato]

So I'm noticing a lot of interest in a DT early in the draft, and I'm amongst those on board. Adding a legit DT next to C Jones could do wonders to open up the Pass Rush both inside and outside, which seems to be the primary goal of this draft

I've seen a lot of love for D Wyatt 6'3 307lbs and T Jones 6'4 326 lbs from the Chief's fanship, and in no way am I bashing those guys because I'm sure they'd be great. Hell, Wyatt has been one of my personal draft crushes, but I'm wondering if that interest might be slightly misplaced? D Wyatt is said to be a disruptive pass rusher, but only recorded 5 sacks in 4 years on a stacked Georgia DL. T Jones is more of a Nose Tackle, double-team eating, run-stuffer type. He had 8.5 sacks in 3 years.

So...why are we so high on those two and not D Leal 6'4 290 lbs or P Mathis 6'3 313 lbs? Leal had 8.5 sacks just last year, and 13 total over 3 years. Some have compared him to C Jones, he's supposed to be disruptive in the backfield as well but had a MJ charge. Mathis had 9 sacks last year! 10.5 over 3 years.

I'm just curious, if pass rush is the goal, why these guys aren't being discussed as equivalent or better options?

[kccrow]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

I could care less about a space eating NT, to be honest. You can grab guys like that in FA nearly any year on the cheap. There's a reason for that. Just because KC often does NOT, doesn't mean we should be blowing high draft picks on one.

If I'm taking a DT early in the draft, he's a plus pass rush threat, period.

I like Winfrey quite a bit in this draft. I think he's similar to Chris Jones. Not as big, but the long arms kind of make up the difference.

This theory doesn't hold much water for me. To be a plus pass rush threat you're not playing the 1 in the NFL often, which is where KC needs to improve and get another body the most. Travis Jones is an ideal fit there and has the traits to be a rare star from the position. I'm not going to subscribe to any theory that won't take a guy like that in round 1 simply because he won't be getting to the QB often. Guys like Vita Vea (present) and Haloti Ngata (past) and so on are guys that can do both but are primarily there to eat blocks and push the LOS backward, which helps the guys that are better pass rushers get home. Jones has more athletic ability than either of those guys and his most favorable measurement comparison is to Mo Williamson who was a pass rush stud. Jones could potentially play either spot, which is what makes him most intriguing.

The other side of the coin is that if you're going to key on a plus pass rusher, then you're keying on the idea they are replacing Chris Jones. That's fine, as Jones is costing a fortune both this year and next. If you're going to key on replacing him, then I'd very much opt for Perrion Winfrey. The problem with Winfrey is he doesn't help your future at the 1 nor improve your depth there. You're banking on Nnadi and Saunders. I worry most about Saunders because if he doesn't cut the mustard in his return then you have no bodies that can hold down that spot. Meanwhile, you already have Stallworth and Wharton to rotate behind Jones. You almost force yourself to take another DT later on that can play the 1 and if he's going to contribute much year 1 then you're probably looking at a day 2 prospect.

[Couch-Potato]

Originally Posted by kccrow

This theory doesn't hold much water for me. To be a plus pass rush threat you're not playing the 1 in the NFL often, which is where KC needs to improve and get another body the most. Travis Jones is an ideal fit there and has the traits to be a rare star from the position. I'm not going to subscribe to any theory that won't take a guy like that in round 1 simply because he won't be getting to the QB often. Guys like Vita Vea (present) and Haloti Ngata (past) and so on are guys that can do both but are primarily there to eat blocks and push the LOS backward, which helps the guys that are better pass rushers get home. Jones has more athletic ability than either of those guys and his most favorable measurement comparison is to Mo Williamson who was a pass rush stud. Jones could potentially play either spot, which is what makes him most intriguing.

The other side of the coin is that if you're going to key on a plus pass rusher, then you're keying on the idea they are replacing Chris Jones. That's fine, as Jones is costing a fortune both this year and next. If you're going to key on replacing him, then I'd very much opt for Perrion Winfrey. The problem with Winfrey is he doesn't help your future at the 1 nor improve your depth there. You're banking on Nnadi and Saunders. I worry most about Saunders because if he doesn't cut the mustard in his return then you have no bodies that can hold down that spot. Meanwhile, you already have Stallworth and Wharton to rotate behind Jones. You almost force yourself to take another DT later on that can play the 1 and if he's going to contribute much year 1 then you're probably looking at a day 2 prospect.

Had a dream that we went DT and OT with our first two picks to replace OBJr & Chris Jones. It was a very sad rebuilding dream.

[kccrow]

Originally Posted by Couch-Potato

Had a dream that we went DT and OT with our first two picks to replace OBJr & Chris Jones. It was a very sad rebuilding dream.

It's the smart way to approach the draft but KC has quite a few holes on the defense to fix. I wouldn't put it past KC to take stabs at doing that as they go along but I can't imagine it'll be in the first round.

I'm high on Braxton Jones as a potential replacement to Orlando but he's going to take a year to develop his strength and technique. The Packers and Steelers have done this exact thing for years with a lot of success. If you can develop guys in that 3rd-5th range into starters then you're putting yourself ahead of the game.

I wouldn't mind seeing KC take a stab at Winfrey, Mathis, or Uwazurike in the right spots either because I see those guys as having the "potential" to replace Jones if they hit. I think Mathis and Uwazurike are "safer" stabs because I think they have the ability to play NT if they aren't the answer at 3T and they can probably get snaps at both right out the gate.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by kccrow

This theory doesn't hold much water for me. To be a plus pass rush threat you're not playing the 1 in the NFL often, which is where KC needs to improve and get another body the most. Travis Jones is an ideal fit there and has the traits to be a rare star from the position. I'm not going to subscribe to any theory that won't take a guy like that in round 1 simply because he won't be getting to the QB often. Guys like Vita Vea (present) and Haloti Ngata (past) and so on are guys that can do both but are primarily there to eat blocks and push the LOS backward, which helps the guys that are better pass rushers get home. Jones has more athletic ability than either of those guys and his most favorable measurement comparison is to Mo Williamson who was a pass rush stud. Jones could potentially play either spot, which is what makes him most intriguing.

The other side of the coin is that if you're going to key on a plus pass rusher, then you're keying on the idea they are replacing Chris Jones. That's fine, as Jones is costing a fortune both this year and next. If you're going to key on replacing him, then I'd very much opt for Perrion Winfrey. The problem with Winfrey is he doesn't help your future at the 1 nor improve your depth there. You're banking on Nnadi and Saunders. I worry most about Saunders because if he doesn't cut the mustard in his return then you have no bodies that can hold down that spot. Meanwhile, you already have Stallworth and Wharton to rotate behind Jones. You almost force yourself to take another DT later on that can play the 1 and if he's going to contribute much year 1 then you're probably looking at a day 2 prospect.

Aren't you the guy going on about 'positional value' most years?


I don't particularly think a run stuffing nose is worth a)a #1 pick, or really a top 90 or so pick b) or all that much money in FA

Mostly, the NFL agrees with me.

Go find a Mike Pennel in June or July for a couple of million.

DE's, WR's, and CB's are expensive. Get THOSE guys in the draft.

(and corners, really, KC only drafts like round 4 on.)

[Chargem]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

Aren't you the guy going on about 'positional value' most years?


I don't particularly think a run stuffing nose is worth a)a #1 pick, or really a top 90 or so pick b) or all that much money in FA

Mostly, the NFL agrees with me.

Go find a Mike Pennel in June or July for a couple of million.

DE's, WR's, and CB's are expensive. Get THOSE guys in the draft.

(and corners, really, KC only drafts like round 4 on.)

I'm sort of torn - I'd be fine with taking anothe Nnadi type in the 3rd who's never going to show any pass rush but can be your 2 down nose.

But there does seem to be a decent amount of value in having a nose who can be stout against the run but also offer some plus pass rush as well, I just don't know what that value is.

I think bottom line, with a relatively weak Dline in general and a lot of picks, if the value at any of the Chiefs first 4 picks is a DT who is a nose with plus pass rush upside, I'm okay with it.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by Chargem

I'm sort of torn - I'd be fine with taking anothe Nnadi type in the 3rd who's never going to show any pass rush but can be your 2 down nose.

But there does seem to be a decent amount of value in having a nose who can be stout against the run but also offer some plus pass rush as well, I just don't know what that value is.

I think bottom line, with a relatively weak Dline in general and a lot of picks, if the value at any of the Chiefs first 4 picks is a DT who is a nose with plus pass rush upside, I'm okay with it.

I've taken Wyatt many times in mocks; but I think he's a true 3 down player.

Winfrey I take sometimes with an eye towards replacing Jones in '23 while giving you excellent interior rushers on passing downs.

Any big, space eating NT type I'm less interested in investing a high pick in. I mean, guys like that useful, but they don't command high dollar in FA. Just get a guy there. Save the picks for the positions that expensive.

Just my opinion.

[GloucesterChief]

Originally Posted by Chargem

I'm sort of torn - I'd be fine with taking anothe Nnadi type in the 3rd who's never going to show any pass rush but can be your 2 down nose.

But there does seem to be a decent amount of value in having a nose who can be stout against the run but also offer some plus pass rush as well, I just don't know what that value is.

I think bottom line, with a relatively weak Dline in general and a lot of picks, if the value at any of the Chiefs first 4 picks is a DT who is a nose with plus pass rush upside, I'm okay with it.

Elliss is my late round run stuffer pick.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by GloucesterChief

Elliss is my late round run stuffer pick.

yeah, see, and you can get that guy in like the 7th.

Which I'm totally fine with.

[Couch-Potato]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

yeah, see, and you can get that guy in like the 7th.

Which I'm totally fine with.

It would be fair enough to point out that both Suh and Clowney are still available in FA. Both would bring some much-needed talent to this defensive line.

[Coogs]

I know this is not new information. But none the less I think it is relevant. At both DT and DE.

Burrows was sacked 9 times vs the Titans.
Burrows was sacked 7 times vs the Rams.

We barely scared him with 1 sack.

There was another game or two during the season where the opposing QB was hammered the week before playing the Chiefs, and we got no pressure whats so ever the following week.

We need resources pumped into the D-line. High in the draft. Middle of the draft. Low in the draft. I do not care. But we can not have JAG's manning the fort. We need young hungry talent. ASAP.

[Chargem]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

I've taken Wyatt many times in mocks; but I think he's a true 3 down player.

Winfrey I take sometimes with an eye towards replacing Jones in '23 while giving you excellent interior rushers on passing downs.

Any big, space eating NT type I'm less interested in investing a high pick in. I mean, guys like that useful, but they don't command high dollar in FA. Just get a guy there. Save the picks for the positions that expensive.

Just my opinion.

I think we pretty much see eye to eye, you're saying you don't want a space eating NT type with a high pick, and I am saying I don't either, unless he has some decent pass rushing upside (which is also what you are saying).

I agree with you that with the cheaps having needs at 3 very expensive/high valuge position groups (edge, CB, WR) it would make more sense to hit those groups than DT.

My only vague thought about the zero pass rush space eater is that the league is becoming less formulaic, and there are less "passing downs" and "running downs", and so having a 3 down NT who can actually pass rush is potentially more valuable than it appears.

I also really like Winfrey, but I think he's currently bad enough against the run that he's playing a relatively specialist role (e.g. low snap count) in year 1. It would be fun lining him up next to Jones in obvious passing downs, but I generally like the idea of taking more DEs and just moving one inside for those downs.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by Chargem

I think we pretty much see eye to eye, you're saying you don't want a space eating NT type with a high pick, and I am saying I don't either, unless he has some decent pass rushing upside (which is also what you are saying).

I agree with you that with the cheaps having needs at 3 very expensive/high valuge position groups (edge, CB, WR) it would make more sense to hit those groups than DT.

My only vague thought about the zero pass rush space eater is that the league is becoming less formulaic, and there are less "passing downs" and "running downs", and so having a 3 down NT who can actually pass rush is potentially more valuable than it appears.

I also really like Winfrey, but I think he's currently bad enough against the run that he's playing a relatively specialist role (e.g. low snap count) in year 1. It would be fun lining him up next to Jones in obvious passing downs, but I generally like the idea of taking more DEs and just moving one inside for those downs.

Well, I don't think he's THAT bad; and I think we still have Mahomes and so other teams will be trying to put up points, so I'll take pass rushers and plug 'em in wherever I can.

[Wilson8]

Originally Posted by Chargem

So the question is, do you want a guy who can spell Chris Jones and maybe eventually replace him, or do you want a guy who can actually play with Jones for the majority of snaps?

That is a really good question and it will be interesting to see what the Chiefs do. Do they try to find a player like Chris Jones or do they try to find a wide body that just eats up the run? Mike Pennel's first season with the Chiefs at 6-4, 330 pounds, he was an excellent sub and a compliment with Chris Jones. He was valuable on KC's run to the Super Bowl. Mike's second year with KC, he did not play with the same energy or desire, but that is another story.

I want a wide body run stuffer because I think that would help for next year. The Chiefs might be thinking about Chris Jones's future contract though and have other ideas for the D line.