Game of Thrones Seasons 7-8

[keg in kc]

About to hit the 5000 post mark on the old thread, the first season 7 trailer today seems like the right time to start the final Game of Thones thread.

I'm going back to the original rules pre-2015. I don't think we need supervision or bannings. Just don't be a dick. Post anything you find online that hasn't aired yet inside of spoiler tags. That's pretty much it. I think we can all handle that...





For future us, 2015 thread is here: Link

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by DaFace

Maybe the show implies that they go down quicker with dragonglass? Or that they'll at least stay dead?

Dragonglass/Valyrian Steel (Dragonblade) severs the enchantments of the Night King, the White Walkers, and the wights.

So striking down a walker with a dragonglass or Valyrian steel weapon means they go down to normal killing blows, versus attacking them with a normal weapon and having to hack them to pieces and light them aflame to put them down (see Snow, season 1, vs the wight to save Jeor Mormont).

It’s not a plot hole.

[Chiefspants]

Originally Posted by Hawk

I take that to mean that the result will be the same, not that the way they get there will be the same. I think the only thing we can glean from this episode about how the books will end is that the Night King is not going to win.

If we ever get a book ending, I still think it will involve Azor Ahai and Lightbringer and all that stuff that the show just ignored in this episode. Arya is not Azor Ahai, and I highly doubt she's the one to kill the Night King in the books.

The Night King has always seemed to me like a "show" personification for the entirety of the WW. I also think the final standoff against the WW will be at the Trident, not Winterfell (through dreams Dany's had at the Trident in falling snow and dreams Arya has had there too).

That plot won't end the same way, but GRRM's focus has never been on Dark Lords or typical fantasy tropes. It's always been about the Game and the characters who are driving that game - and the show seems to be honoring that ending.

A lot of people said GOT went Hollywood, but in the same token are angry Jon didn't get a 1v1 with the NK due to a vaguely worded prophecy (like Harry and Lord Voldemort). Or that the NK didn't win (setting up a final battle against Ice Sauron).

The criticisms that work for me are the fact that many of the main characters survived and in the execution of Arya killing the NK - but to say they "went Hollywood" doesn't really work for me.

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho

Dragonglass/Valyrian Steel (Dragonblade) severs the enchantments of the Night King, the White Walkers, and the wights.

So striking down a walker with a dragonglass or Valyrian steel weapon means they go down to normal killing blows, versus attacking them with a normal weapon and having to hack them to pieces and light them aflame to put them down (see Snow, season 1, vs the wight to save Jeor Mormont).

It’s not a plot hole.

Yes. At Hardhome and at the Frozen Lake, wights are cut up by traditional weapons and at times subdued, but never really "die" they just continue to operate in a mangled state. They actually devote timecode to this at the Frozen Lake, where Sandor obliterates a wight with a warhammer, only for it to rise up again (he then breaks the ice to sink it).

[Hawk]

Originally Posted by Frazod

A sneering villain reveling in his moment of triumph, secure in the knowledge that he'd won the day. Or night, in this case.

Haha yep, if he talked, he'd have been monologuing.

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by Chiefspants

The book reader sub has been a cesspit since Season 4. They also won't tell you this, but that same subreddit hated Feast and Dance when they were first released.

The thing is, Storm of Swords set such a standard in both the books and the show and I'm not sure it's ever going to be met again through either medium.

If people’s standard is to see the twists and turns and subterfuge of SoS throughout the entire series, I think that’s misplaced.

Martin took several years of book events and two entire books to set up SoS. The whole story can’t run at that payoff level perpetually. That’s not how story arcs work (outside soap operas).

Crows, Dragons are meant to set up what we’re seeing on screen now. Which is a much more straightforward representation of payoff, because the stakes and players are different.

Everyone has chosen a side. During the War of the 5 Kings, the stakes were different (win power vs win to save all of humanity) and the players were different and more varied.

[Chiefspants]

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho

If people’s standard is to see the twists and turns and subterfuge of SoS throughout the entire series, I think that’s misplaced.

Martin took several years of book events and two entire books to set up SoS. The whole story can’t run at that payoff level perpetually. That’s not how story arcs work (outside soap operas).

Crows, Dragons are meant to set up what we’re seeing on screen now. Which is a much more straightforward representation of payoff, because the stakes and players are different.

Everyone has chosen a side. During the War of the 5 Kings, the stakes were different (win power vs win to save all of humanity) and the players were different and more varied.

I agree. I think the payoff has the potential to match SoS, but I personally think Martin's writing has declined to a point (i.e. become too meandering and ponderous) that I'm not sure if it will ever deliver at that level - and that's okay. If he sticks the landing, he's not going to betray or diminish the incredible achievement that was SoS. The same goes for the show.

People also won't tell you this, but Season 5 of Breaking Bad also received hate like this when it first aired. People loathed Mike's death (they thought it was lazy). Loathed Walt not getting arrested (thought it was a lazy, cowardly cop-out), they thought the train heist went "Hollywood", and some writers hated that Walt had a "payoff" and wanted him to freeze to death in his car as a "realistic" ending.

That finale is now looked at among the gold standard of finales (often mentioned with Six Feet Under and The Sopranos, the latter of which was also loathed upon release).

If GOT doesn't pull a Lost, HIMYM or Dexter, and don't betray the arcs and development of each of their characters development for a "gotcha" or "ambiguous" or whatever the **** Dexter was going for - it's going to be looked back upon fondly, as all of the build up and incredible character moments in the previous seasons would have been built up for the finish.

[Mr. Plow]

Originally Posted by DaFace

You guys know how awesome we all thought last week's episode was? With all of the main characters talking about the battle? It sure was awesome to see some character arcs fulfilled because we knew that some of them were going to die in the next episode. Except not a single one of them died, despite the fact that some of them literally had 15-20 wights surrounding them that just somehow never managed to kill them.

The one that kind of bugged me was when Jon was chasing the Night King on the ground. NK turns around and raises all of the dead. Jon is in the middle, surrounded by the dead. No way to get out. His death is coming. Sure, he can fight off some of them, but there was too many for one person - even Jon - to take on and win.

Next time they come back to him, he's killed most of them and he's making his way back to the castle.

[Chiefspants]

Originally Posted by Mr. Plow

The one that kind of bugged me was when Jon was chasing the Night King on the ground. NK turns around and raises all of the dead. Jon is in the middle, surrounded by the dead. No way to get out. His death is coming. Sure, he can fight off some of them, but there was too many for one person - even Jon - to take on and win.

Next time they come back to him, he's killed most of them and he's making his way back to the castle.

I thought Dany spitroasted the wights and that's how Jon escaped? I don't remember Jon fighting through them like that.

[Jerm]

Originally Posted by Mr. Plow

The one that kind of bugged me was when Jon was chasing the Night King on the ground. NK turns around and raises all of the dead. Jon is in the middle, surrounded by the dead. No way to get out. His death is coming. Sure, he can fight off some of them, but there was too many for one person - even Jon - to take on and win.

Next time they come back to him, he's killed most of them and he's making his way back to the castle.

That's how it pretty much was for all the main characters this episode and it was ridiculous lol.

[ThaVirus]

Editing inconsistencies, plot armor, and plot-induced stupidity aside, I thought the episode was ****ing awesome.

They really did a fantastic job of building the tension. That shit was palpable.

They did a great job on the battle overall as well. It was brutal. The Dothraki screamers with their flaming swords being extinguished in no time flat, the initial undead charge that washed over the front line like a ****ing tsunami, the dragons fighting above the clouds, etc. Just, so many memorable moments.

There really was this air of hopelessness. Me and my girlfriend felt it and we were at home under the covers.

It seemed pretty damned obvious that retreat wasn’t an option. This was their final stand. The army of the dead doesn’t sleep. Any stragglers attempting to make it south would have been hunted down. Someone had to kill the Night King. It was the only way. Sure, it was disappointing for it to happen at all after eight seasons of being built up, but everything leading up to it was awesome for me. It was a great journey. I’m honestly even OK with Arya being the one to do it. The scene with the White Walker’s hair blowing, noticing something was off, was pretty damned badass. I just wish maybe they’d have had Theon barge him and distract him a bit as Arya deals the killing blow. Just a minor nitpick, though.

I’m excited to see how the rest of the story plays out but for me the story has definitely hit its peak. I was mostly interested in the Battle for the Dawn.

[keg in kc]

Originally Posted by Chiefspants

I thought Dany spitroasted the wights and that's how Jon escaped? I don't remember Jon fighting through them like that.

You are correct. Jon wasn't doing too well on his own.

[Mr. Plow]

Originally Posted by Chiefspants

I thought Dany spitroasted the wights and that's how Jon escaped? I don't remember Jon fighting through them like that.

That's possible. I'm just remembering 2 specific scenes at this point and I'll rewatch it this week. Scene of Jon surrounded by them and next scene is him heading towards the castle.

[Setsuna]

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho

We have no actual idea of how long the actual battle took or how long those characters had to hold off.

You’re assuming it took hours. That assumes that all events shown took place sequentially and none of the scenes happened simultaneously. Faulty assumption.

Ok I'll bite. Lets say it was 4 AM and Dawn came at 5 AM. 1 hour would have been too long still. My argument still holds. You are being dense. I'm done with you.

[BigRichard]

Originally Posted by Mr. Plow

That's possible. I'm just remembering 2 specific scenes at this point and I'll rewatch it this week. Scene of Jon surrounded by them and next scene is him heading towards the castle.

If I recall correctly they show the NK raise the dead all around him and then they show him fighting the undead but they are coming at him like one at a time then Dany comes in and saves him. The part where they were coming at him one at a time was complete BS. They had him surrounded and there were tons of them just a few feet away. He was ****ed at that point.

[keg in kc]

Originally Posted by Hawk

I take that to mean that the result will be the same, not that the way they get there will be the same. I think the only thing we can glean from this episode about how the books will end is that the Night King is not going to win.

If we ever get a book ending, I still think it will involve Azor Ahai and Lightbringer and all that stuff that the show just ignored in this episode. Arya is not Azor Ahai, and I highly doubt she's the one to kill the Night King in the books.

Yeah, watching the behind the scenes post show, they were talking about how they'd decided on Arya to deliver the killing blow, rather than Jon. So they didn't get that from GRRM.

I think we'll have a couple of things that match up, things he told them a while back. But when the books finally come out - if they ever do - I think they're going to be enormously different from the last 3-4 seasons of the series.

[TambaBerry]

all but one person with valyrian steel survived\