The Chiefs don't need an over priced FA to be better next year... - Page 3

|Zach| · 11:57 PM

Ok here it goes. Most of the board will disagree with me. Some will pass me off as an idiot homer...some will say I don't know anything about football and thats fine. I expect this from Chiefsplanet. I would be dissapointed actully if I don't hear things like that and I will be dissapointed if Laz doesn't put himself on the cross in yet another thread for not being a homer but...

I believe the Chief defense will be better next year and here is why I believe that.

They don't have to be that much better for this team to get to the place it wants to be. They didn't win the superbowl last year but I believe the Colts were just as good as any team in the NFL. During the game we only needed the Colts to punt once. One little punt and the offense and special teams could have put it together enough to win the game. They tore apart our defense like it was a complete joke and it was a complete joke. The Colts would line up and Manning would walk his happy ass to all those lineman and just call out plays. For some reason the defense never decided to move or audible at all. Nothing would change and we would pretty much show what we were going to do before the play. I don't care who is playing defense when you play like that you are going to get your ass kicked.

Not every player that is a FA is going to be an automatic upgrade. It seems to be a very popular opinion that "anyone else would be better than what we have." I think this is foolish I think we have a great CB in Eric Warfield. Did he get beat last year? Of course he did its the damn NFL and offense is taking over. Did make a lot of great plays also? Yes. I think he did.

The Chiefs will have a better defense next year if...

Ryan Sims plays up to his potential
The defense attacks with 11 men doing their jobs
Arm tackles are eliminated
The intensity comes back (alot of that passion comes from coaching)

I will be very worried about the Chiefs defense if...

Maslowski is our MLB
There isn't more rotating on the D Line to make use of our player's different strenghts
Chiefs Planet members get control of wheeling and dealing with the Chiefs and we sign an over priced Hugh Douglas type player

Predictions from the thread to the field

Eric Hick's will have a great season under Gunther's style of defense.
Vonnie Holliday will have an awful season and either get beat out in camp or replaced in the regular season
Mitchell if given the nod to start will be a solid player and fierce hitter in the middle for us. Gunther has a knack for developing talent at the LB position.
William Bartee will play well in a limited roll for the Kansas City Chiefs
In the coming years Julian Battle will become the best Chiefs CB since James Hasty

**Rain Man** · 03-11-2004, 11:16 AM

Four years may not be an accurate representation, though.

For example, here's a typical CB's career progression.

1st year - Equivalent of rookie
2nd year - Equivalent of second-year player
3rd year - Equivalent of third-year player
4th year - Equivalent of fourth-year player

Here's Bartee's situtation

1st year under Kurt S. and Gun - Equivalent of rookie.
2nd year under Robinson - Equivalent of rookie.
3rd year under Robinson - Equivalent of college senior
4th year under Robinson - Equivalent of college junior.

I say we redshirt Bartee for a year and let him learn, and then draft him again in 2006.

htismaqe · 03-11-2004, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBlond

I included his last year at Oklahoma.

I was ambivilant about Gun. I think he is a competent NFL DC. As was McGinnis and Jauron and Williams. I think, given some talent to work with, that he can field good defenses.

But returning the same 11 dregs that have sucked for 2 years doesnt give me much hope of seeing a dramatic improvement in our defense.

And, imo, Bartee is the dregiest dreg that dregged last year. As for Gun liking him, don't forget that Gun liked Kurt Schottenhiemer as his Defensive Coordinator.

Exactly the reason I was the subject of such derision five weeks ago.

**Baby Lee** · 03-11-2004, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBlond

If we cannot give up on Bartee WTF can we give up on? Does Ted White still have time to develop into a solid NFL QB?

I mean 4 Frikken years (thanks, htis!

) is a career in the NFL. At some point the shit play isnt just a fluke or an excellent throw by the QB or a great route by the WR or a bad scheme or an injury or poor coaching in college or being played out of his "natural position" or youth or inexperiance or an unlucky jersey number or off-the-field distractions or one leg shorter than the other.

Sometimes the butler did do it.

I'm not trying to excuse anything. I'm merely pointing out that Bartee has negatives [not looking for the ball], but he also has a strong positive [staying with his man]. Now, if the QB gets all day to make his throw, then Bartee's positive becomes irrelevant, because the QB knows that no matter how good the coverage looks an accurate pass WILL connect. BUT, if the QB is hurried, and all he gets to see is tight coverage on a man [which, I stress again, Bartee CAN provide] and a looming sack, he's not even gonna throw Bartee's direction. Think back, how often is Bartee burned when the QB is under quality pressure? Not nearly as often as you might think.

htismaqe · 03-11-2004, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Lee

I'm not trying to excuse anything. I'm merely pointing out that Bartee has negatives [not looking for the ball], but he also has a strong positive [staying with his man]. Now, if the QB gets all day to make his throw, then Bartee's positive becomes irrelevant, because the QB knows that no matter how good the coverage looks an accurate pass WILL connect. BUT, if the QB is hurried, and all he gets to see is tight coverage on a man [which, I stress again, Bartee CAN provide] and a looming sack, he's not even gonna throw Bartee's direction. Think back, how often is Bartee burned when the QB is under quality pressure? Not nearly as often as you might think.

That's because Bartee is 6'2" and runs a 4.4 40.

Like I said, physically he's capable. He needs coaching.

Mark M · 03-11-2004, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe

I've been saying since Gunther drafted him that Bartee has all the physical tools to be a good CB in this league.

Except for the one tool that is the most necessary to play CB:

instinct for the position.

Playing CB is one of the toughest positions to play -- most of the time you're all by yourself, covering half of field, while trying to keep up with some guy who is often bigger and faster. Plus, the WR knows where he's going, while the CB doesn't. Plus, the CB has to watch for the run. And when a CB gets burned, everyone knows about it.

I don't care if a CB can run a 3.0 40-yard time, can jump 62" and is 6'3" and 220. If he doesn't have the instincts -- that clock in his head that tells him to turn around, the feel for what a WR is going to do, the ability to read a play and make a break for the ball -- he will not succeed.

Bartee has physical gifts, but no true knowledge on how to play CB at a high level.

MM
~~

ArrowheadHawk · 03-11-2004, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe

That's because Bartee is 6'2" and runs a 4.4 40.

Like I said, physically he's capable. He needs coaching.

Gunther is just the man to help him, but I'd just as soon have a pro bowler

MrBlond · 03-11-2004, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Lee

I'm not trying to excuse anything. I'm merely pointing out that Bartee has negatives [not looking for the ball], but he also has a strong positive [staying with his man]. Now, if the QB gets all day to make his throw, then Bartee's positive becomes irrelevant, because the QB knows that no matter how good the coverage looks an accurate pass WILL connect. BUT, if the QB is hurried, and all he gets to see is tight coverage on a man [which, I stress again, Bartee CAN provide] and a looming sack, he's not even gonna throw Bartee's direction. Think back, how often is Bartee burned when the QB is under quality pressure? Not nearly as often as you might think.

No doubt QB pressure makes or breaks a CB. Thats why I hold out hope for Warfield. He has shown enough good plays to make me think that with pressure he would improve more.

But Bartee played worse than Warfield. Worse than McCleon. Hell, they played Woods in the nickle last year. All played better than Bartee. With the same pass rush. Expecting Bartee to make a quantum leap with a better pass rush (which is not given with the same 4 starting DLinemen) takes a leap of faith that I just don't have.

But like has been said the Bartee question is moot. If he comes back he will be the dime back. Behind McCleon, Warfield, Battle. And maybe a 2nd round pick. I just can't work up tears if we bring back such an irrelevent player.

Cormac · 03-11-2004, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man

Here's Bartee's situtation

1st year under Kurt S. and Gun - Equivalent of rookie.
2nd year under Robinson - Equivalent of rookie.
3rd year under Robinson - Equivalent of college senior
4th year under Robinson - Equivalent of college junior.

I say we redshirt Bartee for a year and let him learn, and then draft him again in 2006.

Hilarious.

htismaqe · 03-11-2004, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark M

Except for the one tool that is the most necessary to play CB:

instinct for the position.

Playing CB is one of the toughest positions to play -- most of the time you're all by yourself, covering half of field, while trying to keep up with some guy who is often bigger and faster. Plus, the WR knows where he's going, while the CB doesn't. Plus, the CB has to watch for the run. And when a CB gets burned, everyone knows about it.

I don't care if a CB can run a 3.0 40-yard time, can jump 62" and is 6'3" and 220. If he doesn't have the instincts -- that clock in his head that tells him to turn around, the feel for what a WR is going to do, the ability to read a play and make a break for the ball -- he will not succeed.

Bartee has physical gifts, but no true knowledge on how to play CB at a high level.

MM
~~

Go back and watch some tape over the last couple of years.

Bartee is the best run-stopping CB we have. I sincerely mean that.

That's why he's probably best-suited for safety.

htismaqe · 03-11-2004, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBlond

No doubt QB pressure makes or breaks a CB. Thats why I hold out hope for Warfield. He has shown enough good plays to make me think that with pressure he would improve more.

But Bartee played worse than Warfield. Worse than McCleon. Hell, they played Woods in the nickle last year. All played better than Bartee. With the same pass rush. Expecting Bartee to make a quantum leap with a better pass rush (which is not given with the same 4 starting DLinemen) takes a leap of faith that I just don't have.

But like has been said the Bartee question is moot. If he comes back he will be the dime back. Behind McCleon, Warfield, Battle. And maybe a 2nd round pick. I just can't work up tears if we bring back such an irrelevent player.

Just an FYI, but the reason Woods played nickel was because Bartee was injured.

As soon as Bartee returned from injury, he was inserted as the nickel back. Vermeil actually considered moving McCleon to nickel but said at the time that Dexter had played too well to warrant removing him.

MrBlond · 03-11-2004, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Just an FYI, but the reason Woods played nickel was because Bartee was injured.

As soon as Bartee returned from injury, he was inserted as the nickel back. Vermeil actually considered moving McCleon to nickel but said at the time that Dexter had played too well to warrant removing him.

Why are you being so disigenerent today?

Chief Roundup · 03-11-2004, 11:50 AM

You are right we don't need any "overpriced FA" but we do need a couple of FA signings.

|Zach| · 03-11-2004, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Roundup

You are right we don't need any "overpriced FA" but we do need a couple of FA signings.

Like who and for what?

Mark M · 03-11-2004, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Go back and watch some tape over the last couple of years.

Bartee is the best run-stopping CB we have. I sincerely mean that.

That's why he's probably best-suited for safety.

I've been saying for two years that they should move him to FS.

Of course, I'm not a real-life GM ...

I only play one on the Internet.

MM
~~

Chief Roundup · 03-11-2004, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZachKC

Like who and for what?

Like a CB to push Bartee off our roster. Like a DT to pushing Downing off our roster. Like a MLB in replace Mazlowski

03-11-2004, 12:23 AM
\|Zach\| For The Glory Of The City Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Kansas City Casino cash: $4406768	The Chiefs don't need an over priced FA to be better next year... (Zach's Prediction) Ok here it goes. Most of the board will disagree with me. Some will pass me off as an idiot homer...some will say I don't know anything about football and thats fine. I expect this from Chiefsplanet. I would be dissapointed actully if I don't hear things like that and I will be dissapointed if Laz doesn't put himself on the cross in yet another thread for not being a homer but... I believe the Chief defense will be better next year and here is why I believe that. They don't have to be that much better for this team to get to the place it wants to be. They didn't win the superbowl last year but I believe the Colts were just as good as any team in the NFL. During the game we only needed the Colts to punt once. One little punt and the offense and special teams could have put it together enough to win the game. They tore apart our defense like it was a complete joke and it was a complete joke. The Colts would line up and Manning would walk his happy ass to all those lineman and just call out plays. For some reason the defense never decided to move or audible at all. Nothing would change and we would pretty much show what we were going to do before the play. I don't care who is playing defense when you play like that you are going to get your ass kicked. Not every player that is a FA is going to be an automatic upgrade. It seems to be a very popular opinion that "anyone else would be better than what we have." I think this is foolish I think we have a great CB in Eric Warfield. Did he get beat last year? Of course he did its the damn NFL and offense is taking over. Did make a lot of great plays also? Yes. I think he did. The Chiefs will have a better defense next year if... Ryan Sims plays up to his potential The defense attacks with 11 men doing their jobs Arm tackles are eliminated The intensity comes back (alot of that passion comes from coaching) I will be very worried about the Chiefs defense if... Maslowski is our MLB There isn't more rotating on the D Line to make use of our player's different strenghts Chiefs Planet members get control of wheeling and dealing with the Chiefs and we sign an over priced Hugh Douglas type player Predictions from the thread to the field Eric Hick's will have a great season under Gunther's style of defense. Vonnie Holliday will have an awful season and either get beat out in camp or replaced in the regular season Mitchell if given the nod to start will be a solid player and fierce hitter in the middle for us. Gunther has a knack for developing talent at the LB position. William Bartee will play well in a limited roll for the Kansas City Chiefs In the coming years Julian Battle will become the best Chiefs CB since James Hasty Last edited by \|Zach\|; 05-13-2004 at 11:57 PM..
Posts: 54,005

03-11-2004, 11:16 AM	#31
Rain Man NFL's #1 Ermines Fan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: My house Casino cash: $1808491 VARSITY	Four years may not be an accurate representation, though. For example, here's a typical CB's career progression. 1st year - Equivalent of rookie 2nd year - Equivalent of second-year player 3rd year - Equivalent of third-year player 4th year - Equivalent of fourth-year player Here's Bartee's situtation 1st year under Kurt S. and Gun - Equivalent of rookie. 2nd year under Robinson - Equivalent of rookie. 3rd year under Robinson - Equivalent of college senior 4th year under Robinson - Equivalent of college junior. I say we redshirt Bartee for a year and let him learn, and then draft him again in 2006. __________________ Active fan of the greatest team in NFL history.
Posts: 142,657

03-11-2004, 11:50 AM	#42
Chief Roundup Admitted Planet Junky Join Date: Oct 2000 Casino cash: $621627	You are right we don't need any "overpriced FA" but we do need a couple of FA signings. __________________ Fanaticism is nowhere. There is no tenderness or humanity in fanaticism.
Posts: 19,375