So many people want to trade the 2nd round pick.... - Page 3

milkman · 03-13-2005, 12:07 AM

....citing Carl's piss poor 2nd round draft record as a reason that a 2nd for Surtain is a no brainer.

Yet these same people are drooling over the prospect of picking that 1st round CB, or LB, or even WR.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but isn't Carl's 1st round draft record nearly as pathetic as his 2nd round record?

What makes any of you think we'll get a stud in the 1st round?

I just don't get it.

**ShortRoundChief** · 03-13-2005, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefsfolife

well i dont care what your conclusion is...im just saying that if you have any clue about critcal thinking, logic, inference or the rules of inference, shit just algebra might help you alittle..

. its possible you might understand the argument alittle more...you can sometimes

see things a little clearer and not so one dimension like you son...dont just wait for information try work inference on your own or you will never get a better job son...

im just messin wit ya...do whatever you want loser but if you're gonna insult someone try alittle harder

ha ha

you called me a loser.

now that's funny.

Gaz · 03-13-2005, 08:34 AM

The “give up the 2nd Round pick for Surtain because Peterson would just screw it up anyway” line of reasoning is absurd.

If you take this reasoning to its logical conclusion, it would be a mistake to either draft or sign FAs, since we have had major disappointments in both areas.

“Thanks, Mr. Tagliabue, but we want to give up all our draft picks. We would only screw it up. Sorry for the trouble.”

Feh.

There are [2] questions here:

1. Can we get equivalent net value to the team with the 2nd Round pick? A young OLB or CB or WR in the draft and a lesser light veteran CB in FA?

2. What kind of cap hit will it take to get Surtain on board?

Considering the gaping hole at OLB and the massive team rebuild in our future, I do not see that giving up draft picks for Surtain is the right choice. I do not see Surtain as the key piece to our 2006 playoff run puzzle. I do not question his ability as a CB, but I do question whether a great CB is a value trade for a scrub OLB.

Get me a veteran OLB [currently, I am enamored of Simmons] and that trade looks a lot better.

xoxo~
Gaz
Putting Surtain on the back burner until OLB is sorted out.

penchief · 03-13-2005, 09:02 AM

I think Carl has done a fair job with first rounders considering our average draft position. I think he runs into problems in the second round because he tries to get too cute. It seems like he's always trying to find a diamond in the rough. And it always seems to backfire. I think he'd do a lot better if he drafted players with a record of producing on the field. Especially when drafting defense. To me, the best defensive prospects are the ones that have a proven track-record in college.

Instead of taking the Chris Speilmans of the world, we end up taking the Bartees, Battles, and Mitchells of the world. All great atheletes but not proven defenders.

That said, I think anytime you can get a young pro-bowler at a position of dire need for a second round pick you have to do it.

**RNR** · 03-13-2005, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by penchief

That said, I think anytime you can get a young pro-bowler at a position of dire need for a second round pick you have to do it.

I agree with this line of thought. Surtain has a 6-8 year window left as top CB. That window can be longer as CBs can switch to saftey once they lose a step. That is a great return for a 2nd round pick. I hope KC takes a pass on this trade

DTLB58 · 03-13-2005, 09:18 AM

I would rather keep that 2nd round pick especially since we don't have a 3rd this year but only IF we sign a FA CB BEFORE the draft. We must have a different veteran at CB to start the 05 season! If we have to trade the 2nd to get one then we will have to do that.

The Rolle deal falling thru F*** this whole thing up

DTLB58 · 03-13-2005, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedNeckRaider

I agree with this line of thought. Surtain has a 6-8 year window left as top CB. That window can be longer as CBs can switch to saftey once they lose a step. That is a great return for a 2nd round pick. I hope KC takes a pass on this trade

He has already played 7 years in the league to expect him to have 6-8 years left as a TOP CB or even safety at 13-15 years in this league

Rod Woodson comes to mind but that's the exception rather than the rule don't you think?

**RNR** · 03-13-2005, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTLB58

He has already played 7 years in the league to expect him to have 6-8 years left as a TOP CB or even safety at 13-15 years in this league

Rod Woodson comes to mind but that's the exception rather than the rule don't you think?

Ronnie Lott, Mike Haynes, Albert Lewis, Darrell Green, Adeas Williams, Willie Brown, Lester Hays, Ray Buchannon, off the top of my head all played effective ball well into their mid to late 30s. Surtain is in that class of players IMO.

tiptap · 03-13-2005, 10:04 AM

I have suggested this on other threads.

Trade our 1st pick for Surtain and Dolphin 2nd pick. That means like last year, that our rookies don't get guaranteed contracts but get money only if they make the team. And we still have 2 picks in the first day. The money we would have had to delegate to our 1st round pick would be freed up to pay Surtain and we would make the hard choices of who to cut based upon who is being productive on the field for those 2nd round choices.

If nothing else, if the Dolphins balked it would most likely be because they can't afford to pay two 1st round contracts for rookies who have 50% chance on not playing and meet CAP. What this says is that the CAP will be the reason Surtain is let go in June anyway in order to meet these new rookie contracts.

NaptownChief · 03-13-2005, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiptap

I have suggested this on other threads.

Trade our 1st pick for Surtain and Dolphin 2nd pick. That means like last year, that our rookies don't get guaranteed contracts but get money only if they make the team.

A couple things...First off the Fins don't have a 2nd round pick because of their brilliant AJ Feeley trade, they also don't have a 3rd round pick because of the Lamar Gordon trade with the Rams.

As for the guaranteed contracts comment I believe you are thinking of the NBA where 1st rounders get a guaranteed 3 year deal and 2nd rounders don't...NFL isn't like that...Only thing guaranteed is the signing bonus that is put in their hand. Granted because the signing bonuses are getting so big that it is becoming more popular for part of the bonus to be deferred but other than the guaranteed bonuses in the contracts virtually nothing else is.
.

Gaz · 03-13-2005, 10:13 AM

I want Carlos Rogers with that 1st Rounder.

Hands off, man. Hands off and back slowly away from the pick.

xoxo~
Gaz
Baring his teeth.

whoman69 · 03-13-2005, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deberg_1990

exactly..trade the pick for an already proven vet and pro-bowler?? who is still fairly young? I would have made that trade like a week ago.

Why give up a pick when there are options that don't involve it? Even if we have to sign one of the 2nd tier FA, we would still be able to afford a top of the line LB. Getting Surtain means we are done in FA. It means that we either have to go with a LB that we already have or draft one in the 3rd. Even after getting Surtain, we would still need to draft another CB in the draft to hold us over until Warfield is able to play.

crossbow · 03-13-2005, 11:12 AM

If Miami is looking to rebuild then they need lots of picks. We have at least two of each pick including and beyond the 5th. Can we bundle 4 of those picks instead of the 2nd or do we need those too? Are they worth it to Miami. Just throwing this idea out.

Coogs · 03-13-2005, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaz

I want Carlos Rogers with that 1st Rounder.

Hands off, man. Hands off and back slowly away from the pick.

xoxo~
Gaz
Baring his teeth.

Here is a bio on your 1st rounder. Sounds a lot like what we already have...

From nflcountdown...

Carlos Rogers

Official Bio College: Auburn Height: 6-03/8
Position: Cornerback Weight: 196
Class: Senior 40-Yard: 4.35
SCOUTING REPORT
Strengths: Excellent size and speed for the position...Tough player who will fight through injuries...Great athleticism...Good ball skills and has become a a playmaker as a senior...Has a lot of experience and made an impact early on as a freshman.
Weaknesses: Doesn't always play up to his physical tools...Isn't a great tackler...Not very stout against the run...Has a lot of work to do in terms of his technique...Needs to master the nuances of the position rather than relying on his physical gifts so much.
Notes: Has just the type of size / speed ratio you are looking for in an NFL corner...A bit of an underachiver throughout his career but came on as a senior...You can bet some team will be more than willing to take a chance on a player with his physical tools and he could go a little higher than his play on the field would suggest.

Gaz · 03-13-2005, 11:35 AM

http://www.footballsfuture.com/2005/...os_rogers.html
Carlos Rogers has always been a solid football player, but he truly emerged his senior season. He took home the Thorpe Award for the nations top defensive back, after totaling 47 tackles, 5 for loss, with 2 interceptions. For his career, he had 181 tackles, 7 interceptions, and 45 pass breakups.
Rogers is a great all around corner prospect. He has good size, speed, and athleticism. What makes him a great player however is his attitude. He’s tough, will get in your face, and never give up. He’s just a great football player. He can turn and run with most receivers, make plays on the ball, but will also make a hit in the running game. He has very good instincts and can play bump, man up, or in zone coverage.

Rogers has a lot of experience, but he still relies on talent too much. He needs to get with a coach to teach him the corner spot, and to help him reach his full potential. He could get stronger too, which will help him keep the jam on receivers at the line and help him finish off more tackles.
Rogers took a big step forward this season, and it has resulted in a first round grade. I expect him to hear his name called in the last half of the first round, but with great workouts, he may go earlier than that. He has big time upside, and should be a very good NFL corner.

Pick your poison.

xoxo~
Gaz
Can find positive and negative reviews of just about every player out there.

DTLB58 · 03-13-2005, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedNeckRaider

Ronnie Lott, Mike Haynes, Albert Lewis, Darrell Green, Adeas Williams, Willie Brown, Lester Hays, Ray Buchannon, off the top of my head all played effective ball well into their mid to late 30s. Surtain is in that class of players IMO.

Great examples, especially Darrell Green. Will the new rules have an effect on who we now consider great secondary players and for how long?

I agree we MUST upgrade our secondary, just wondering as time passes with these new rules will we see a strong secondary not as necessary as a front 7 that can apply strong QB pressure. I know I'm kinda getting off the original subject here (how much longer Surtain has in his tank) but because of the rule changes maybe a 2nd tier DB will be as good as a top CB and save the premier guys for the line and backers.

03-13-2005, 12:07 AM
milkman Dumbass! Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Leading the Marty bashing Casino cash: $10029395	So many people want to trade the 2nd round pick.... ....citing Carl's piss poor 2nd round draft record as a reason that a 2nd for Surtain is a no brainer. Yet these same people are drooling over the prospect of picking that 1st round CB, or LB, or even WR. Maybe I'm missing something here, but isn't Carl's 1st round draft record nearly as pathetic as his 2nd round record? What makes any of you think we'll get a stud in the 1st round? I just don't get it.
Posts: 70,769

03-13-2005, 08:34 AM	#32
Gaz Defense Homer Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Rancho Gaz Casino cash: $10010793	OLB first, please... The “give up the 2nd Round pick for Surtain because Peterson would just screw it up anyway” line of reasoning is absurd. If you take this reasoning to its logical conclusion, it would be a mistake to either draft or sign FAs, since we have had major disappointments in both areas. “Thanks, Mr. Tagliabue, but we want to give up all our draft picks. We would only screw it up. Sorry for the trouble.” Feh. There are [2] questions here: 1. Can we get equivalent net value to the team with the 2nd Round pick? A young OLB or CB or WR in the draft and a lesser light veteran CB in FA? 2. What kind of cap hit will it take to get Surtain on board? Considering the gaping hole at OLB and the massive team rebuild in our future, I do not see that giving up draft picks for Surtain is the right choice. I do not see Surtain as the key piece to our 2006 playoff run puzzle. I do not question his ability as a CB, but I do question whether a great CB is a value trade for a scrub OLB. Get me a veteran OLB [currently, I am enamored of Simmons] and that trade looks a lot better. xoxo~ Gaz Putting Surtain on the back burner until OLB is sorted out.
Posts: 5,911

03-13-2005, 09:02 AM	#33
penchief MVP Join Date: Feb 2003 Casino cash: $6085286	I think Carl has done a fair job with first rounders considering our average draft position. I think he runs into problems in the second round because he tries to get too cute. It seems like he's always trying to find a diamond in the rough. And it always seems to backfire. I think he'd do a lot better if he drafted players with a record of producing on the field. Especially when drafting defense. To me, the best defensive prospects are the ones that have a proven track-record in college. Instead of taking the Chris Speilmans of the world, we end up taking the Bartees, Battles, and Mitchells of the world. All great atheletes but not proven defenders. That said, I think anytime you can get a young pro-bowler at a position of dire need for a second round pick you have to do it.
Posts: 17,045

03-13-2005, 09:18 AM	#35
DTLB58 DT CARD COLLECTOR Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: ManCave Casino cash: $10005837	I would rather keep that 2nd round pick especially since we don't have a 3rd this year but only IF we sign a FA CB BEFORE the draft. We must have a different veteran at CB to start the 05 season! If we have to trade the 2nd to get one then we will have to do that. The Rolle deal falling thru F*** this whole thing up __________________ 667 Different DT cards and counting
Posts: 7,574

03-13-2005, 10:04 AM	#38
tiptap Is this it? Join Date: Jan 2004 Casino cash: $10007847	I have suggested this on other threads. Trade our 1st pick for Surtain and Dolphin 2nd pick. That means like last year, that our rookies don't get guaranteed contracts but get money only if they make the team. And we still have 2 picks in the first day. The money we would have had to delegate to our 1st round pick would be freed up to pay Surtain and we would make the hard choices of who to cut based upon who is being productive on the field for those 2nd round choices. If nothing else, if the Dolphins balked it would most likely be because they can't afford to pay two 1st round contracts for rookies who have 50% chance on not playing and meet CAP. What this says is that the CAP will be the reason Surtain is let go in June anyway in order to meet these new rookie contracts. __________________ Even a superstitious man has certain inalienable rights. He has a right to harbor and indulge his imbecilities as long as he pleases. . . He has a right to argue for them as eloquently as he can, in season and out of season. He has a right to teach them to his children. But certainly he has no right to be protected against the free criticism of those who do not hold them. He has no right to demand that they be treated as sacred. He has no right to preach them without challenge." -H.L. Mencken
Posts: 5,134

03-13-2005, 10:13 AM	#40
Gaz Defense Homer Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Rancho Gaz Casino cash: $10010793	We need a CBotF... I want Carlos Rogers with that 1st Rounder. Hands off, man. Hands off and back slowly away from the pick. xoxo~ Gaz Baring his teeth.
Posts: 5,911

03-13-2005, 11:12 AM	#42
crossbow King of Sarcasm Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: at home Casino cash: $10004900	If Miami is looking to rebuild then they need lots of picks. We have at least two of each pick including and beyond the 5th. Can we bundle 4 of those picks instead of the 2nd or do we need those too? Are they worth it to Miami. Just throwing this idea out. __________________ If the mind were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't.
Posts: 2,159

03-13-2005, 11:35 AM	#44
Gaz Defense Homer Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Rancho Gaz Casino cash: $10010793	One man's trash... http://www.footballsfuture.com/2005/...os_rogers.html Carlos Rogers has always been a solid football player, but he truly emerged his senior season. He took home the Thorpe Award for the nations top defensive back, after totaling 47 tackles, 5 for loss, with 2 interceptions. For his career, he had 181 tackles, 7 interceptions, and 45 pass breakups. Rogers is a great all around corner prospect. He has good size, speed, and athleticism. What makes him a great player however is his attitude. He’s tough, will get in your face, and never give up. He’s just a great football player. He can turn and run with most receivers, make plays on the ball, but will also make a hit in the running game. He has very good instincts and can play bump, man up, or in zone coverage. Rogers has a lot of experience, but he still relies on talent too much. He needs to get with a coach to teach him the corner spot, and to help him reach his full potential. He could get stronger too, which will help him keep the jam on receivers at the line and help him finish off more tackles. Rogers took a big step forward this season, and it has resulted in a first round grade. I expect him to hear his name called in the last half of the first round, but with great workouts, he may go earlier than that. He has big time upside, and should be a very good NFL corner. Pick your poison. xoxo~ Gaz Can find positive and negative reviews of just about every player out there.
Posts: 5,911