NFL Draft AP: Barkley, Forcier no ordinary freshmen QBs - Page 3

**Tribal Warfare** · 09-16-2009, 07:03 PM

Barkley, Forcier no ordinary freshmen QBs

By RALPH D. RUSSO (AP)

NEW YORK — Matt Barkley and Tate Forcier are freshmen standouts but in college football today, you can hardly call them precocious.

A couple of cool, California teenagers leading two of college football's most prestigious programs, Michigan's Forcier and USC's Barkley are part of a generation of polished passers who are arriving on campus better prepared than ever to play.

Between private tutors, passing camps, more advanced high-school offenses (and defenses) and early college enrollment, Barkley, Forcier and other elite quarterback prospects are practically being engineered to play the position.

Make no mistake, while there are plenty of well-schooled quarterbacks being pumped into college football these days, what Barkley and Forcier have done is exceptional. It's just that after two straight sophomore Heisman Trophy winners, Tim Tebow and Sam Bradford, the idea of a freshman quarterback hauling off the big bronze statue one day doesn't seem so farfetched anymore.

The 19-year-old, blonde-haired Barkley has led No. 3 Southern California to a 2-0 start, including an 18-15 victory at Ohio State on Saturday in which he directed a brilliant game-winning drive late in the fourth quarter.

The recruiting experts pegged him as the top quarterback in his high school class and he has the look of a future high NFL draft pick: 6-foot-2, 230 pounds, strong and accurate arm — a great match for the Trojans' prostyle offense.

Forcier, also 19, has lifted spirits at Michigan following a miserable 2008 season. He engineered his own memorable comeback victory Saturday, throwing a touchdown pass with 11 seconds left to beat Notre Dame 38-34, and has the 25th-ranked Wolverines (2-0) looking like Big Ten contenders again.

Forcier was a blue-chip recruit coming out of high school, too, but is different model than Barkley. Undersized (6-1, 188) but multidimensional, his quickness and speed make him a perfect fit for the Wolverines' spread offense.

Their physical differences aside, both play with confidence that belies their youth.

"He was in it, talking, communicating," USC coach Pete Carroll said of Barkley's performance in hostile territory. "I've said that a number of times, but a lot of times kids don't communicate real well. He was fine. He's just like he always was, and is."

Forcier plays with a smile on his face and doesn't get down when he makes mistakes.

"His make up is suited perfectly for that position," Michigan coach Rich Rodriguez said.

Talent helps, but both have been raised to be exactly where they are.

Barkley went to Mater Dei High School, in Santa Ana, Calif., the powerhouse football school that produced USC Heisman Trophy winner Matt Leinart. He also studied under Steve Clarkson, one of the first and most famous personal quarterback tutors in the country.

Clarkson, a three-year starting quarterback at San Jose State in the early 1980s, has worked with Leinart, Ben Roethlisberger of the Pittsburgh Steelers and Notre Dame's Jimmy Clausen.

Forcier is from San Diego and playing quarterback is a family tradition — one older brother was a backup for Michigan, the other for UCLA.

He has been training with Marv Marinovich, father of former USC quarterback Todd Marinovich, since before he reached his teens. Home-schooled, he played at Scripps Ranch High School, running a spread offense.

Like most young talented quarterback prospects, Barkley and Forcier have spent their youths constantly honing their skills.

"These guys are playing quarterback year-round, they're clearly further along then they were in my day," UCLA coach and former quarterback Rick Neuheisel said.

Still, it's rare for teams to rely on freshmen quarterbacks. Only four other teams have given freshmen QBs significant playing times this season, and that counts Boston College's Dave Shinskie, a 25-year-old former minor league baseball player.

That number could go up this week, with Neuheisel considering playing freshman Richard Brehaut to replace an injured starter.

"To play a freshman quarterback, if you're going to have a good team or a chance to be successful, you're going to have to have a lot of good players around him," said former Tennessee coach Phillip Fulmer, who started Peyton Manning, Casey Clausen and Erik Ainge as freshmen and had winning seasons with all of them. "He can't be expected to carry the load. His job is to not lose the ball game."

So far so good for Barkley and Forcier, but that's not quite enough for Forcier. He wants to shoot down college football's conventional wisdom about freshmen QBs, the line that says the newbie is bound to screw up in a big spot and cost his team a game.

"I've been hearing that from everybody," he said. "That's motivation to push me and has made me want to prove everybody else wrong."

htismaqe · 09-16-2009, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

I disagree, I don't think teams will ever put their QB's in that position. Not to mention the league is still full of run the ball, play defense type of coaches.

There won't be any QB's to put in that position if 90% of all college programs adopt a spread/option/flex scheme...

Mecca · 09-16-2009, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe

There won't be any QB's to put in that position if 90% of all college programs adopt a spread/option/flex scheme...

And that is why when you have the opportunity to draft a QB from a pro style offense, Ryan, Sanchez etc, you don't pass.

You know what I see happening? I see more Flacco types these guys from small schools that get drafted higher because they play in a proper offense.

And I believe there will be top level recruits that choose schools that play pro style for NFL reasons.

htismaqe · 09-16-2009, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

And that is why when you have the opportunity to draft a QB from a pro style offense, Ryan, Sanchez etc, you don't pass.

You know what I see happening? I see more Flacco types these guys from small schools that get drafted higher because they play in a proper offense.

And I believe there will be top level recruits that choose schools that play pro style for NFL reasons.

Those types of guys are drying up in the FCS and Div II too. The spread offense is an equalizer and it's use is expanding at all levels.

High schools are playing flex/spread offenses and those are the guys going to college. It's an inevitable evolution from the bottom up.

At least that's the way I see it.

Mecca · 09-16-2009, 09:23 PM

I don't think the NFL will ever run the spread as a base offense ..so either these guys will have to adapt or they'll fail.

Maybe a team or 2 will but you will never see an NFL team not run from under center.

Silock · 09-16-2009, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

you're just asking for it to blow up in your face.

That's what she said!

htismaqe · 09-16-2009, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

I don't think the NFL will ever run the spread as a base offense ..so either these guys will have to adapt or they'll fail.

Maybe a team or 2 will but you will never see an NFL team not run from under center.

That's what I'm saying. There will come a point where the "adapt or fail" idea will FAIL to produce any viable NFL QB's. And then it will be the teams that have to adapt, not the players.

Mecca · 09-16-2009, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe

That's what I'm saying. There will come a point where the "adapt or fail" idea will FAIL to produce any viable NFL QB's. And then it will be the teams that have to adapt, not the players.

I think either the QB's will have to make it Brees and Roethlisberger are from spreads and made it so there will either have to be exceptions or the league will be fully of QB's from the same schools.

There a reason these USC QB's keep getting drafted high...

Even the young QB's succeeding in the league today are guys from pro style offenses and I think the spread is hurting WR's too because when you look at the top WR's across the league none of them came from that system either.

'Hamas' Jenkins · 09-16-2009, 10:46 PM

There is too much speed on defense for the college spread to ever work in the NFL; it's the same reason why the option never worked. The running plays take too long to develop, and there is so much speed in the back 7 that those short routes will be gobbled up.

Eventually QBs will realize that they are being dropped down boards due to the increased learning curve, the fact that they lack proper mechanics and footwork, and the fact that most of them put up big stats but have weak arm strength, and not a goddamned one of them can read a defense for shit.

Who was the first spread QB taken this year? Pat White, and he's not even really a QB. The first QB taken this year from a true spread offense was Bomar in Round 5. They'll go higher this year, but it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Snead end up as the #1 QB on most people's boards, as he won't take 3 years to turn into an NFL quarterback, and not a guy who needs to look at his coaches for 20 seconds while they read the defense.

GMs and coaches get fired too quickly. Were this 20 years ago, spread QBs would be more accepted, as regimes had more time to iron out the kinks, but as it stands now, no one is going to use their entire grace period on a QBOTF who needs to be taught how to play football from the ground up.

**Buehler445** · 09-16-2009, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

Personally I'd never draft a spread QB, you're just asking for it to blow up in your face.

I think you take him late and develop his talent.

I think it will be a gradual thing, but dudes will start to fall. The problem I see is guys that are in spreads now are undersized. If you see guys with prototypical size, like Gabbert for instance do everything right in college and take a dive, then you might see some lightbulbs go on for recruits.

**Buehler445** · 09-16-2009, 11:53 PM

And to Hamas' point, you can't take Mizzou's offense and plug it into the NFL, but you'll see teams continually work more stuff into their offense that their personnel do well. Shit Atlanta ran a college offense for Vick. Vick is a toolbox, but they still did it.

It will just be a little more gradual. Right now, in college, there just aren't a lot of guys that I want QBing my team. Am I off base or is the QB pool just shit this year?

Mecca · 09-17-2009, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buehler445

And to Hamas' point, you can't take Mizzou's offense and plug it into the NFL, but you'll see teams continually work more stuff into their offense that their personnel do well. Shit Atlanta ran a college offense for Vick. Vick is a toolbox, but they still did it.

It will just be a little more gradual. Right now, in college, there just aren't a lot of guys that I want QBing my team. Am I off base or is the QB pool just shit this year?

Eh the spread has really screwed up alot of stuff, now we have all these midget QB's or guys not getting proper coaching for the next level.

Of course frankly how many top notch QB's are there? There are never going to be enough for every NFL team to have one that's just how it works. The spread fixation I think will mean less so the NFL teams will pine even more for one.

'Hamas' Jenkins · 09-17-2009, 12:21 AM

If you look at the QB class for next year:

Jevan Snead is the only legit QB prospect from a pro system. He's a lot like Jay Cutler, with a little less arm strength. I have no idea as to his mental makeup.

Bradford is a spread monkey with lots of question marks about his ability to read a defense, play from under center, footwork, and arm strength.

McCoy has all the same questions as Bradford, with a checkered injury history and a smaller frame. He's built a lot like Brodie Croyle.

Tebow is a future NFL special teams player. He has an awful throwing motion with all the questions of Bradford. He's basically a white Charlie Ward. Great college player who has no position in the NFL

There are a couple of MAC QBs in Hiller and LeFevour, and Tony Pike who are interesting specimens, but have a lot of concerns with scheme, injury, etc.

It's a bad, bad class. The lack of depth of last year with the lack of a top end prospect.

Mecca · 09-17-2009, 12:36 AM

And that sums up why when you have the chance to take a Stafford or a Sanchez you don't pass.

I still don't remotely believe the NFL is going to change because college football went spread crazy.

**Tribal Warfare** · 09-17-2009, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

And that sums up why when you have the chance to take a Stafford or a Sanchez you don't pass.

I still don't remotely believe the NFL is going to change because college football went spread crazy.

I wonder if it's possible that college football would penalize teams for using the spread as their base which would be categorized as an illegal formation. If the NFL is worried about that they could discuss it with the NCAA.

Valiant · 09-17-2009, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

Great, I think it's ****ing up development for the next level but to each their own.

It is not their job to prepare them for the next level.. Their job is to win games, conferences and titles..

My prediction is the NFL starts getting more gimmicky which you will hate..

09-16-2009, 07:03 PM
Tribal Warfare Man of Culture Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Far Beyond Comprehension Casino cash: $-2987187	AP: Barkley, Forcier no ordinary freshmen QBs Barkley, Forcier no ordinary freshmen QBs By RALPH D. RUSSO (AP) NEW YORK — Matt Barkley and Tate Forcier are freshmen standouts but in college football today, you can hardly call them precocious. A couple of cool, California teenagers leading two of college football's most prestigious programs, Michigan's Forcier and USC's Barkley are part of a generation of polished passers who are arriving on campus better prepared than ever to play. Between private tutors, passing camps, more advanced high-school offenses (and defenses) and early college enrollment, Barkley, Forcier and other elite quarterback prospects are practically being engineered to play the position. Make no mistake, while there are plenty of well-schooled quarterbacks being pumped into college football these days, what Barkley and Forcier have done is exceptional. It's just that after two straight sophomore Heisman Trophy winners, Tim Tebow and Sam Bradford, the idea of a freshman quarterback hauling off the big bronze statue one day doesn't seem so farfetched anymore. The 19-year-old, blonde-haired Barkley has led No. 3 Southern California to a 2-0 start, including an 18-15 victory at Ohio State on Saturday in which he directed a brilliant game-winning drive late in the fourth quarter. The recruiting experts pegged him as the top quarterback in his high school class and he has the look of a future high NFL draft pick: 6-foot-2, 230 pounds, strong and accurate arm — a great match for the Trojans' prostyle offense. Forcier, also 19, has lifted spirits at Michigan following a miserable 2008 season. He engineered his own memorable comeback victory Saturday, throwing a touchdown pass with 11 seconds left to beat Notre Dame 38-34, and has the 25th-ranked Wolverines (2-0) looking like Big Ten contenders again. Forcier was a blue-chip recruit coming out of high school, too, but is different model than Barkley. Undersized (6-1, 188) but multidimensional, his quickness and speed make him a perfect fit for the Wolverines' spread offense. Their physical differences aside, both play with confidence that belies their youth. "He was in it, talking, communicating," USC coach Pete Carroll said of Barkley's performance in hostile territory. "I've said that a number of times, but a lot of times kids don't communicate real well. He was fine. He's just like he always was, and is." Forcier plays with a smile on his face and doesn't get down when he makes mistakes. "His make up is suited perfectly for that position," Michigan coach Rich Rodriguez said. Talent helps, but both have been raised to be exactly where they are. Barkley went to Mater Dei High School, in Santa Ana, Calif., the powerhouse football school that produced USC Heisman Trophy winner Matt Leinart. He also studied under Steve Clarkson, one of the first and most famous personal quarterback tutors in the country. Clarkson, a three-year starting quarterback at San Jose State in the early 1980s, has worked with Leinart, Ben Roethlisberger of the Pittsburgh Steelers and Notre Dame's Jimmy Clausen. Forcier is from San Diego and playing quarterback is a family tradition — one older brother was a backup for Michigan, the other for UCLA. He has been training with Marv Marinovich, father of former USC quarterback Todd Marinovich, since before he reached his teens. Home-schooled, he played at Scripps Ranch High School, running a spread offense. Like most young talented quarterback prospects, Barkley and Forcier have spent their youths constantly honing their skills. "These guys are playing quarterback year-round, they're clearly further along then they were in my day," UCLA coach and former quarterback Rick Neuheisel said. Still, it's rare for teams to rely on freshmen quarterbacks. Only four other teams have given freshmen QBs significant playing times this season, and that counts Boston College's Dave Shinskie, a 25-year-old former minor league baseball player. That number could go up this week, with Neuheisel considering playing freshman Richard Brehaut to replace an injured starter. "To play a freshman quarterback, if you're going to have a good team or a chance to be successful, you're going to have to have a lot of good players around him," said former Tennessee coach Phillip Fulmer, who started Peyton Manning, Casey Clausen and Erik Ainge as freshmen and had winning seasons with all of them. "He can't be expected to carry the load. His job is to not lose the ball game." So far so good for Barkley and Forcier, but that's not quite enough for Forcier. He wants to shoot down college football's conventional wisdom about freshmen QBs, the line that says the newbie is bound to screw up in a big spot and cost his team a game. "I've been hearing that from everybody," he said. "That's motivation to push me and has made me want to prove everybody else wrong."
Posts: 43,452

09-16-2009, 09:23 PM	#34
Mecca Hockey Town Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Casino cash: $-702950	I don't think the NFL will ever run the spread as a base offense ..so either these guys will have to adapt or they'll fail. Maybe a team or 2 will but you will never see an NFL team not run from under center.
Posts: 115,380

09-16-2009, 10:46 PM	#38
'Hamas' Jenkins Now you've pissed me off! Join Date: Jan 2006 Casino cash: $7139572	There is too much speed on defense for the college spread to ever work in the NFL; it's the same reason why the option never worked. The running plays take too long to develop, and there is so much speed in the back 7 that those short routes will be gobbled up. Eventually QBs will realize that they are being dropped down boards due to the increased learning curve, the fact that they lack proper mechanics and footwork, and the fact that most of them put up big stats but have weak arm strength, and not a goddamned one of them can read a defense for shit. Who was the first spread QB taken this year? Pat White, and he's not even really a QB. The first QB taken this year from a true spread offense was Bomar in Round 5. They'll go higher this year, but it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Snead end up as the #1 QB on most people's boards, as he won't take 3 years to turn into an NFL quarterback, and not a guy who needs to look at his coaches for 20 seconds while they read the defense. GMs and coaches get fired too quickly. Were this 20 years ago, spread QBs would be more accepted, as regimes had more time to iron out the kinks, but as it stands now, no one is going to use their entire grace period on a QBOTF who needs to be taught how to play football from the ground up. __________________ "When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read 'all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty – to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy.”--Abraham Lincoln
Posts: 75,083

09-16-2009, 11:53 PM	#40
Buehler445 Supporter Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Scott City KS Casino cash: $-1585266	And to Hamas' point, you can't take Mizzou's offense and plug it into the NFL, but you'll see teams continually work more stuff into their offense that their personnel do well. Shit Atlanta ran a college offense for Vick. Vick is a toolbox, but they still did it. It will just be a little more gradual. Right now, in college, there just aren't a lot of guys that I want QBing my team. Am I off base or is the QB pool just shit this year?
Posts: 60,019

09-17-2009, 12:21 AM	#42
'Hamas' Jenkins Now you've pissed me off! Join Date: Jan 2006 Casino cash: $7139572	If you look at the QB class for next year: Jevan Snead is the only legit QB prospect from a pro system. He's a lot like Jay Cutler, with a little less arm strength. I have no idea as to his mental makeup. Bradford is a spread monkey with lots of question marks about his ability to read a defense, play from under center, footwork, and arm strength. McCoy has all the same questions as Bradford, with a checkered injury history and a smaller frame. He's built a lot like Brodie Croyle. Tebow is a future NFL special teams player. He has an awful throwing motion with all the questions of Bradford. He's basically a white Charlie Ward. Great college player who has no position in the NFL There are a couple of MAC QBs in Hiller and LeFevour, and Tony Pike who are interesting specimens, but have a lot of concerns with scheme, injury, etc. It's a bad, bad class. The lack of depth of last year with the lack of a top end prospect. __________________ "When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read 'all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty – to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy.”--Abraham Lincoln
Posts: 75,083

09-17-2009, 12:36 AM	#43
Mecca Hockey Town Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Casino cash: $-702950	And that sums up why when you have the chance to take a Stafford or a Sanchez you don't pass. I still don't remotely believe the NFL is going to change because college football went spread crazy.
Posts: 115,380