Chiefs Babb: It's almost the middle of October. Too early to start thinking about the draft - Page 3

**Tribal Warfare** · 10-13-2009, 12:42 PM

It's almost the middle of October. Too early to start thinking about the draft?

Things I believe:

- The Chiefs have made progress in their first five games, all of which have been losses (and some of them ugly).
- It will benefit the team for having played three terrific teams -- Baltimore, the Giants and Philadelphia -- early in the season, as disheartening as those losses were.
- Matt Cassel has at least some of the skills necessary to be Kansas City's quarterback of the future, at least based on one stunningly impressive drive at the end of regulation Sunday.
- The Chiefs' remaining holes will hold back any significant progress until the team and general manager Scott Pioli have time to address them.

Think about that last one. That one nullifies the first three, and it makes everyone's job at Arrowhead Stadium a lot tougher than it should be. Here's one more thing I believe:

- The Chiefs will win no more than three games in 2009. That means that, for the third consecutive year, they'll probably have a top-five pick in the NFL draft.

So with that in mind, and the growing frustration among many of you, I have found myself looking past what will continue to be a season in which progress, and not necessary victories, is the objective. I have found myself looking toward next year's draft, when the Chiefs will have many chances to upgrade some positions that badly need them.

Not that the list starts and stops here, but here are the positions that I think the Chiefs absolutely must upgrade -- and have those upgrades work out, immediately -- in the draft, if not during free agency:

1. Offensive line
2. Wide receiver
3. Safety
4. Linebacker

Yeah, that's a lot. But the Chiefs will have lots of picks, including the additional second-rounder they received in exchange for Tony Gonzalez. That might not be an especially high pick, considering Atlanta looks pretty solid, but at this point, the Chiefs will take as many chances as they can get to improve a team that possesses more questionable position groups than reliable ones.

As usual, the question becomes this: If you have to choose, do you draft for need or for talent? This could be an issue next April. Safety is a need, sure, but it's not the top need. So, Tennessee safety Eric Berry at, say, No. 3, or reach for an offensive lineman? What about grabbing a star wide receiver with that top pick?

Some of you might disagree with this, but I think the Chiefs absolutely must -- as unsexy as it might be -- address their offensive line with the first pick. This should not be a debate, now or in the draft room. The Chiefs passed this year on signing a marquee lineman, and now they're paying for it. And it's not just that the line is suspect; a porous wall of blockers renders your running backs useless and your quarterback terrified. Neither Cassel, Larry Johnson nor Jamaal Charles will ever be as good as they could have been this season because of the weak offensive line they have blocking for them. That in turn puts more pressure on the Chiefs' wide receivers and, even on down the line, makes the defense's job tougher because the offense can't move the ball and give defenders a break. That happened against Baltimore, and it might have been the reason the Chiefs couldn't get a stop when they badly needed one. Also, Pioli was an offensive lineman in college. I'd have to think it's giving him recurring stomach cramps to watch the Chiefs' blockers.

It's in such turmoil that I think the Chiefs, who curiously waited until the fifth round to address their line, should use at least two of their top four picks on offensive linemen.

With the (first?) pick in the 2010 NFL draft, the Kansas City Chiefs select ...

... Russell Okung, offensive tackle out of Oklahoma State. Look, the name might change. We'll keep Okung there for now as a placeholder. But the position should not change. And I'll admit it now: I argued against taking a tackle at No. 3 overall this year because of Branden Albert. But after watching Albert struggle at times this year, I think the Chiefs need to make tackle the priority of the offseason. Whether that means moving Albert to right tackle or keeping him at the left side, at least the Chiefs would have options. When Albert left the game Sunday against Dallas, I wondered on Twitter if Albert was the Chiefs' most valuable player. Not the team's MVP but rather valuable in the more literal sense: What the heck would the Chiefs do if he was lost for the season? There's just nobody -- and don't give me Wade Smith -- whom the Chiefs should trust at that position. This makes it a clear choice with the first pick.

I'd probably draft a wide receiver or safety with the Chiefs' second-rounder, or even consider taking the best available player. Nose tackle, linebacker, cornerback, running back -- whomever's there, sell me on him. The Chiefs have that many needs. But I have to tell you: I'm going into that pick thinking about a wideout or a safety to replace Mike Brown.

With the Gonzalez pick, which could be somewhere in the bottom third of the second round, I'm going guard. Mike Goff hasn't been the Chiefs' answer at right guard, and you can get a terrific guard in the third. Center, too. I just think that, as much a liability as the Chiefs' line has been, it requires this kind of emphasis. Now, I'd expect Pioli to address the line in free agency, too, but I'd prefer to sign receivers or linebackers* and address the offensive line in the draft. If I'm building for the future, I'm drafting my elite linemen instead of signing them.

* They'll need several of these; I'm beginning to consider Derrick Johnson's return, if he indeed becomes a free agent [the collective bargaining agreement makes this complicated, and I won't bore you with it here], is becoming an enormous long shot. Corey Mays and Demorrio Williams are decent, but they're not outstanding inside linebackers. Mike Vrabel is aging and might be slowing. But hey, the Chiefs have Tamba Hali! One out of four ain't bad.

So, if they follow my advice, as they did when trading for Matt Cassel but ignored when they passed on Aaron Curry, this is one way the Chiefs' line could look next season:

LT: Okung (or whomever is the best left tackle come draft day)
LG: Brian Waters (He's slowing down, but he's good for another season or two)
C: Rudy Niswanger
RG: Second-round pick
RT: Albert

Suddenly, that line doesn't look so bad, does it? And that automatically improves the play of the Chiefs' quarterback, running backs, receivers, defense -- everybody.

Yes, it's early. But it's not too early to consider how much better the Chiefs would have been in 2009 if they entered last offseason with an emphasis on improving the line.

They didn't, and the Chiefs are suffering. I don't believe it'll get better in Kansas City until the line undergoes a massive overhaul.

**DaneMcCloud** · 10-13-2009, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinChief

Not saying we should.... but IF we take an LT with our top pick ...
I see this as our line...

drafted LT-Albert-Waters-Mankins-O'Callaghan

Two problems with this: Mankins is a guard and has started at left guard every game since being drafted. Why would he move to the right side?

Second: In what is likely to be an uncapped year, he'd be under contract next year, thus unavailable.

And finally, why would he leave New England for Kansas City?

**AustinChief** · 10-13-2009, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Two problems with this: Mankins is a guard and has started at left guard every game since being drafted. Why would he move to the right side?

Second: In what is likely to be an uncapped year, he'd be under contract next year, thus unavailable.

And finally, why would he leave New England for Kansas City?

#1 He would move cuz we told him to!
#2 yep, the whole theory is shot if the year is uncapped.
#3 $$$ we have the money to pay him

**DaneMcCloud** · 10-13-2009, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinChief

#1 He would move cuz we told him to!
#2 yep, the whole theory is shot if the year is uncapped.
#3 $$$ we have the money to pay him

And what do you do about our 5th rounder from 2009, Colin Brown?

Isn't he the right guard of the future?

Once he's off IR, that is...

Chiefnj2 · 10-13-2009, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eazyb81

Looking past the 1st, I'd love to grab Eric Norwood with our #2A pick if he drops. We desperately need a pass rushing OLB to make this defense at least decent. He's a tad undersized but a smart D coordinator could utilize him in a number of looks.

Okung's potential is through the roof, but he has been off and on this year when I've seen him. I guess we could take him and move Albert to guard....wouldn't be ideal but it could work, and that combo would most certainly be better than any combo that includes Goff.

Norwood is one of the few guys who has stood out to me as being a game changer. He'll slip because of his size and his workout numbers won't be earth shattering, but you'll get a hell of a football player. Just like Laurinaitis and Maualuga slipping this past year.

58kcfan89 · 10-13-2009, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bad Guy

I don't care what upgrades we make, if Niswanger is starting, they won't matter.

This.

And if we have a top 5 pick, we'll also have a top 5 pick in the 2nd round. Albert will hopefully break out of this slump so we can take a S, WR, etc. with the top pick, then a RT with the 2nd pick.

If Albert proves that he can't play LT (please, football gods, help him play there), then it's definitely worth looking at a LT with the top pick. But I'm not completely off the Albert bandwagon yet.

Saccopoo · 10-13-2009, 04:51 PM

LT: Russ Okung
LG: Albert
C: Kris O'Dowd
RG: Brown
RT: Zane Beadles or Ciron Black

And because we are going to trade Dorsey and Hali for 2nd rounders, plus some additional 4th and 6th round picks, and DJ for a 3rd, we we also get:

Eric Norwood and Dennis Pitta.

Greatest draft ever!

Halfcan · 10-13-2009, 04:55 PM

Lots of picks?? We had lots this year too-lol

kcchiefsus · 10-13-2009, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pestilence

You don't have to draft an OT in the top 5 to immediately fix your offensive line.

Logan Mankins is going to be a FA next year. The Pats can't afford to resign both him and Wilfork. You throw the cash at Mankins and you plug him in at RG (or LG depending on if Waters is still around).

We should come out of the first three rounds with:

Berry or Mays
A TRUE pass-rushing OLB.
A new starting OC.
A TRUE #2 WR

The problem is, until proven otherwise, I do not see this team getting into a bidding war for a player the caliber of Mankins. All this team has proven in recent history is that they are too cheap to go out there and compete for free agents.

Also, if the CBA is allowed to expire we are NOT going to be able to depend on free agency at all to bring in some talent.

RustShack · 10-13-2009, 05:02 PM

I honestly can't see the NFL going capped no matter what the owners are saying right now. They will keep delaying the offseason until a new CBA is worked out, and a rookie cap is inplace.

kcchiefsus · 10-13-2009, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

I swear, people just assume that offensive linemen can play anywhere.

In the pros, he's a LT. Period.

He's not big enough, nor a talented enough run blocker to play inside against DT's/NT's and he's not the road grader necessary at RT either.

Not big enough? That is complete bullshit. Not every guard is some big road grader. Albert is about 305 or so right now I think but he came into the NFL at 315 and as well all know he ballooned up too 340 in the offseason. Size is not an issue with him, he can carry additional weight if he needs to.

Do you think Eric Steinbach is a huge road grader? Hell no. Doesn't mean he isn't a damn good guard.

RustShack · 10-13-2009, 05:05 PM

I think Albert is #1 a LG, #2 LT. I also don't think there is a LT in this years draft worth replacing Albert though.

**RealSNR** · 10-13-2009, 05:34 PM

San Diego went through a similar dry spell of Oline depth many years ago. They addressed it all in one draft by spending lots of picks in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounds on Olinemen. That seems to be the sweet spot for most drafts, where you can get the best prospects for the best value when it comes to the offensive line. GENERALLY. Obviously it varies from draft to draft, but at least you're not spending a first rounder on a friggin LT in a weak offensive line draft.

We NEED a playmaker, wherever that is. If it's Eric Berry/Taylor Mays in the 1st, then that's the way it has to be.

tonyetony · 10-13-2009, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinChief

Not saying we should.... but IF we take an LT with our top pick ...
I see this as our line...

drafted LT-Albert-Waters-Mankins-O'Callaghan

I am fine with this... BUT would still be pissed if we passed over a proven playmaker to get here.

I would rather have a Mays or Berry any day of the week

That would be an upgrade if Waters panned out at center. If he didn't pan out I hope to god Niswager isn't our insurance policy.

Mr. Laz · 10-13-2009, 07:17 PM

Waters played some center at the beginning of his career and he is just barely making it at left guard right now. I wonder if we could be better served with his experience at center.

LT - Drafted i presume
LG - Albert (if he keeps whiffing on this outside rushers

)
C - Waters (niswanger is weak and waters should be good at the line calls)
RG - Allerman (it was him in for Goff that looked decent against the Cowgirls iirc)
RT - Callaghan (he's not terrible so far, can he keep improving?)

start with this, but still draft good Olineman when you can.

Chiefnj2 · 10-13-2009, 07:37 PM

For anyone who thinks Albert can play guard in the NFL, did you watch him in college? Did you see how he was used? He does NOT fit the type of OL that Haley appears to be building. If he plays inside it would have to be similar to what Vermeil ran. Smaller/finesse players like Weigman could excel in it, but when asked to maul they couldn't. It isn't a matter of just putting him inside because he played inside at Virginia.

10-13-2009, 12:42 PM
Tribal Warfare Man of Culture Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Far Beyond Comprehension Casino cash: $-3007187	Babb: It's almost the middle of October. Too early to start thinking about the draft It's almost the middle of October. Too early to start thinking about the draft? Things I believe: - The Chiefs have made progress in their first five games, all of which have been losses (and some of them ugly). - It will benefit the team for having played three terrific teams -- Baltimore, the Giants and Philadelphia -- early in the season, as disheartening as those losses were. - Matt Cassel has at least some of the skills necessary to be Kansas City's quarterback of the future, at least based on one stunningly impressive drive at the end of regulation Sunday. - The Chiefs' remaining holes will hold back any significant progress until the team and general manager Scott Pioli have time to address them. Think about that last one. That one nullifies the first three, and it makes everyone's job at Arrowhead Stadium a lot tougher than it should be. Here's one more thing I believe: - The Chiefs will win no more than three games in 2009. That means that, for the third consecutive year, they'll probably have a top-five pick in the NFL draft. So with that in mind, and the growing frustration among many of you, I have found myself looking past what will continue to be a season in which progress, and not necessary victories, is the objective. I have found myself looking toward next year's draft, when the Chiefs will have many chances to upgrade some positions that badly need them. Not that the list starts and stops here, but here are the positions that I think the Chiefs absolutely must upgrade -- and have those upgrades work out, immediately -- in the draft, if not during free agency: 1. Offensive line 2. Wide receiver 3. Safety 4. Linebacker Yeah, that's a lot. But the Chiefs will have lots of picks, including the additional second-rounder they received in exchange for Tony Gonzalez. That might not be an especially high pick, considering Atlanta looks pretty solid, but at this point, the Chiefs will take as many chances as they can get to improve a team that possesses more questionable position groups than reliable ones. As usual, the question becomes this: If you have to choose, do you draft for need or for talent? This could be an issue next April. Safety is a need, sure, but it's not the top need. So, Tennessee safety Eric Berry at, say, No. 3, or reach for an offensive lineman? What about grabbing a star wide receiver with that top pick? Some of you might disagree with this, but I think the Chiefs absolutely must -- as unsexy as it might be -- address their offensive line with the first pick. This should not be a debate, now or in the draft room. The Chiefs passed this year on signing a marquee lineman, and now they're paying for it. And it's not just that the line is suspect; a porous wall of blockers renders your running backs useless and your quarterback terrified. Neither Cassel, Larry Johnson nor Jamaal Charles will ever be as good as they could have been this season because of the weak offensive line they have blocking for them. That in turn puts more pressure on the Chiefs' wide receivers and, even on down the line, makes the defense's job tougher because the offense can't move the ball and give defenders a break. That happened against Baltimore, and it might have been the reason the Chiefs couldn't get a stop when they badly needed one. Also, Pioli was an offensive lineman in college. I'd have to think it's giving him recurring stomach cramps to watch the Chiefs' blockers. It's in such turmoil that I think the Chiefs, who curiously waited until the fifth round to address their line, should use at least two of their top four picks on offensive linemen. With the (first?) pick in the 2010 NFL draft, the Kansas City Chiefs select ... ... Russell Okung, offensive tackle out of Oklahoma State. Look, the name might change. We'll keep Okung there for now as a placeholder. But the position should not change. And I'll admit it now: I argued against taking a tackle at No. 3 overall this year because of Branden Albert. But after watching Albert struggle at times this year, I think the Chiefs need to make tackle the priority of the offseason. Whether that means moving Albert to right tackle or keeping him at the left side, at least the Chiefs would have options. When Albert left the game Sunday against Dallas, I wondered on Twitter if Albert was the Chiefs' most valuable player. Not the team's MVP but rather valuable in the more literal sense: What the heck would the Chiefs do if he was lost for the season? There's just nobody -- and don't give me Wade Smith -- whom the Chiefs should trust at that position. This makes it a clear choice with the first pick. I'd probably draft a wide receiver or safety with the Chiefs' second-rounder, or even consider taking the best available player. Nose tackle, linebacker, cornerback, running back -- whomever's there, sell me on him. The Chiefs have that many needs. But I have to tell you: I'm going into that pick thinking about a wideout or a safety to replace Mike Brown. With the Gonzalez pick, which could be somewhere in the bottom third of the second round, I'm going guard. Mike Goff hasn't been the Chiefs' answer at right guard, and you can get a terrific guard in the third. Center, too. I just think that, as much a liability as the Chiefs' line has been, it requires this kind of emphasis. Now, I'd expect Pioli to address the line in free agency, too, but I'd prefer to sign receivers or linebackers* and address the offensive line in the draft. If I'm building for the future, I'm drafting my elite linemen instead of signing them. * They'll need several of these; I'm beginning to consider Derrick Johnson's return, if he indeed becomes a free agent [the collective bargaining agreement makes this complicated, and I won't bore you with it here], is becoming an enormous long shot. Corey Mays and Demorrio Williams are decent, but they're not outstanding inside linebackers. Mike Vrabel is aging and might be slowing. But hey, the Chiefs have Tamba Hali! One out of four ain't bad. So, if they follow my advice, as they did when trading for Matt Cassel but ignored when they passed on Aaron Curry, this is one way the Chiefs' line could look next season: LT: Okung (or whomever is the best left tackle come draft day) LG: Brian Waters (He's slowing down, but he's good for another season or two) C: Rudy Niswanger RG: Second-round pick RT: Albert Suddenly, that line doesn't look so bad, does it? And that automatically improves the play of the Chiefs' quarterback, running backs, receivers, defense -- everybody. Yes, it's early. But it's not too early to consider how much better the Chiefs would have been in 2009 if they entered last offseason with an emphasis on improving the line. They didn't, and the Chiefs are suffering. I don't believe it'll get better in Kansas City until the line undergoes a massive overhaul.
Posts: 43,454

10-13-2009, 04:51 PM	#36
Saccopoo Kindness in words... Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Zion Casino cash: $10025483	LT: Russ Okung LG: Albert C: Kris O'Dowd RG: Brown RT: Zane Beadles or Ciron Black And because we are going to trade Dorsey and Hali for 2nd rounders, plus some additional 4th and 6th round picks, and DJ for a 3rd, we we also get: Eric Norwood and Dennis Pitta. Greatest draft ever!
Posts: 15,450

10-13-2009, 04:55 PM	#37
Halfcan In Search of a Life Join Date: Aug 2005 Casino cash: $7327995	Lots of picks?? We had lots this year too-lol
Posts: 43,200

10-13-2009, 05:02 PM	#39
RustShack **** That Noise Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Jack Trice Casino cash: $3036954	I honestly can't see the NFL going capped no matter what the owners are saying right now. They will keep delaying the offseason until a new CBA is worked out, and a rookie cap is inplace. __________________
Posts: 15,126

10-13-2009, 05:05 PM	#41
RustShack **** That Noise Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Jack Trice Casino cash: $3036954	I think Albert is #1 a LG, #2 LT. I also don't think there is a LT in this years draft worth replacing Albert though. __________________
Posts: 15,126

10-13-2009, 05:34 PM	#42
RealSNR Special Teams ACE!!! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Where the hell is SNR Casino cash: $-1544792	San Diego went through a similar dry spell of Oline depth many years ago. They addressed it all in one draft by spending lots of picks in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounds on Olinemen. That seems to be the sweet spot for most drafts, where you can get the best prospects for the best value when it comes to the offensive line. GENERALLY. Obviously it varies from draft to draft, but at least you're not spending a first rounder on a friggin LT in a weak offensive line draft. We NEED a playmaker, wherever that is. If it's Eric Berry/Taylor Mays in the 1st, then that's the way it has to be.
Posts: 93,441

10-13-2009, 07:17 PM	#44
Mr. Laz Don't Tease Me Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: KS Casino cash: $11047037	Waters played some center at the beginning of his career and he is just barely making it at left guard right now. I wonder if we could be better served with his experience at center. LT - Drafted i presume LG - Albert (if he keeps whiffing on this outside rushers ) C - Waters (niswanger is weak and waters should be good at the line calls) RG - Allerman (it was him in for Goff that looked decent against the Cowgirls iirc) RT - Callaghan (he's not terrible so far, can he keep improving?) start with this, but still draft good Olineman when you can. __________________
Posts: 95,626

10-13-2009, 07:37 PM	#45
Chiefnj2 In Search of a Life Join Date: Mar 2007 Casino cash: $6654388	For anyone who thinks Albert can play guard in the NFL, did you watch him in college? Did you see how he was used? He does NOT fit the type of OL that Haley appears to be building. If he plays inside it would have to be similar to what Vermeil ran. Smaller/finesse players like Weigman could excel in it, but when asked to maul they couldn't. It isn't a matter of just putting him inside because he played inside at Virginia. __________________ Mismanaging the clock.
Posts: 22,541