The 4-3 Under and Current Personnel

[11Chiefs]

Here are some thoughts about transitioning to 4-3. I like the player comparisons. Let these guys play in a scheme and position where they can succeed. My only question... can KPass adjust and find a role.

The 4-3 discussion deserves it's own thread. #megathreadssuck

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2019/...personnel-fits

Spoiler!

With the hiring of new defensive coordinator Steve Spagnuolo, the Chiefs are likely seeing a switch from their 3-4 defense to the 4-3. That’s caused a lot of consternation amongst Chiefs fans, but where are the biggest problems for the Chiefs in this switch?

I’m going to give you a quick-and-dirty look at where some players can fit, position responsibilities and who are the winners and losers of the formation switch.

The 4-3 variant that Spagnuolo chooses to use is similar to that utilized by his mentor and former Andy Reid defensive coordinator Jim Johnson, called the 4-3 Under. The 4-3 Under front shares quite a few similarities to that of the Chiefs 3-4 defense, making this transition easier.

Weak-side defensive end - The Weak-side defensive end — also called the “LEO” — in the 4-3 Under is typically the best pass rusher on the team. Putting his hand in the dirt, this defender is responsible for weak-side run contain opposite the tight end and getting after the quarterback. With the Chiefs current personnel, this would be an easy fill for Dee Ford. Limited coverage responsibility, ability to set an edge, and — most importantly — a great pass rusher are all things that we’ve seen from Dee Ford this season.

3 Technique - Lining up to the same side as the weak-side defensive end, the 3-tech is a penetrating player capable of beating a guard one on one. This position is typically a player that has a solid get-off, can knife to either side and has the speed to attack the run from the back side. Once again, an easy fit — and potentially a better fit in the 3-4 base defense — for Chris Jones. Jones can utilize his speed and strength to collapse on the run, get after the passer, and find plenty of great matchups one on one in a 4-3 under front.

1 Technique - Opposite of the 3 technique, the 1 technique is typically a 2-gap player, getting doubles against the strong-side guard and center, freeing up the linebackers behind him to make stops. This is usually filled by a player in an “under tackle” or “nose guard” mold, which the Chiefs have in Derrick Nnadi and Xavier Williams. Both will have to command a double team to keep the linebackers clean, and both should be plenty capable.

Strong-side defensive end - Lined up to the strong side of the offense, this defensive end will be between the tight end and the tackle, and their primary responsibility is as a run stuffer with a minimal amount of pass rush ability. This is actually a perfect fit to try to maximize last year’s second-round pick Breeland Speaks. Speaks is solid against the run, but looks uncomfortable in space, something he won’t have to contend with often lined up in this spot. With some wanting to kick Speaks inside to 5-tech in the Chiefs 3-4 defense, this situation presents a better opportunity for Speaks to develop as a starting player for the Chiefs.

SAM linebacker - When most think of the 4-3 defense, they think of three off-ball linebackers on the second level behind four defensive linemen. With the 4-3 Under, one of those off-ball linebackers shifts down close to the line of scrimmage — still standing — and can rush the passer or drop into coverage to carry a tight end to the safeties in the second level. During Spagnuolo’s second run as a defensive coordinator with the New York Giants, he acquired Olivier Vernon, who played this role regularly. Vernon is a large outside linebacker with limited coverage ability but was able to defend the run very well off of the tight end and could find a lot of success as a pass rusher standing up. If that sounds familiar to you, it should — it’s quite similar to what Justin Houston has offered the Chiefs recently. Houston would be a very solid fit in this role should the Chiefs retain him.

Mike linebacker - Shading between the 1-tech and the 3-tech at the second level, the Mike linebacker’s responsibility in the 4-3 under are to cover a short hook zone in the center of the field and to attack the run. With his limited coverage ability shown this season — as well as a much more familiar four-man front in front of him, like he saw in Dallas — Anthony Hitchens is a solid fit in this role. He’ll be less exposed in coverage, can set the fronts, and attack downhill more readily instead of being asked to cover multiple gaps as the weak-side linebacker in the Chiefs 3-4.

Will linebacker - Sitting behind the weak-side defensive end and the 3-tech, the will linebacker is tasked with keying off of the running back in the run game and kicking out into man coverage or the flats against the pass. This will linebacker is typically kept clean by the defensive linemen in front of him, allowing him to attack as unimpeded to the running back as he can from the weak side of the formation. As a good coverage linebacker and a guy that struggles to stack and shed blockers, Dorian O’Daniel might gain the biggest advantage in a scheme switch. The Chiefs could find themselves in a great position to utilize last year’s third-round pick.

When the Chiefs change to their sub package — something that every NFL team runs as their primary package — this evolves easily. The Chiefs can remove the 1-tech, shift the strong-side defensive end inside, and bring the SAM down — a 4-2 front similar to that they’ve used in the past — or they can remove the strong-side defensive end and stay big in the middle to protect against the run, still as a 4-2 front.

Winners
NFL: Kansas City Chiefs at Denver Broncos
Mark J. Rebilas-USA TODAY Sports
Breeland Speaks is a big winner here, having a true position on the field. His ability to kick inside in the sub package and play the run in the base are hugely beneficial for the Chiefs. Dorian O’Daniel and Anthony Hitchens would be in significantly more comfortable roles for the style of play they are capable of, and that should only improve the Chiefs run defense and coverage ability. Chris Jones is also a big winner, seeing more one-on-ones in the base defense and he too could find snaps in Speaks’ strong-side defensive end role if the Chiefs wanted to develop a more penetrating front on some plays.

Losers
Reggie Ragland simply doesn’t have a home in a 4-3 Under. He isn’t strong enough to set an edge or rushing the passer to play the way Spagnuolo utilizes his SAM, and he’s not a better option at the Mike than Anthony Hitchens. Tanoh Kpassagnon is also not a great option at SAM due to his run defense, and not a good enough pass rusher as a LEO to come off the other EDGE.

With the Chiefs having to make some serious decisions at pass rusher — Justin Houston’s bloated contract and Dee Ford’s impending free agency — they’ll have to decide if they need to keep both, or which position they’ll have to fill this offseason. While the LEO position is arguably the most important in the front, the skillset of the SAM is a difficult one to find.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by staylor26

And then your pass rush is depleted. You really think we get better on D without both of those guys?

I don’t see any way they let both go when we’re this close.

Which is why I'd restructure Houston and keep him at SLB. Either draft a replacement for Ford at WDE or find one in FA. Ford is not going to be worth the franchise tag or a long term deal in this defense.

[JakeF]

You move Houston back to LB again and offensive will just start running RB/TEs at him over and over again. He's not fast enough to turn and run with anyone. Houston should be a DE now. He is strong enough to set the edge and quick enough to rush the passer.

[ToxSocks]

Originally Posted by JakeF

You move Houston back to LB again and offensive will just start running RB/TEs at him over and over again. He's not fast enough to turn and run with anyone. Houston should be a DE now. He is strong enough to set the edge and quick enough to rush the passer.

I like him better at DE as well. He's our best player at sealing the edge, strong at the Point of attack and a good pass rusher/disrupter. Speaks can continue being a rotational guy unless we get a semi-surprise cut by releasing one of Ford or Houston. Find a SLB in F/A or the draft.

[ToxSocks]

My line would be Ford-Jones-Nnadi-Houston.

[staylor26]

Originally Posted by JakeF

You move Houston back to LB again and offensive will just start running RB/TEs at him over and over again. He's not fast enough to turn and run with anyone. Houston should be a DE now. He is strong enough to set the edge and quick enough to rush the passer.

If Vernon can play SLB in this scheme than Houston can. His coverage responsibilities won’t be that much different than they have been.

[Hydrae]

Originally Posted by StinkBox

A 3-4 is a more flexible defense to run and harder to defend against. I hope the Chiefs don't decide to switch to a 4-3 but like everyone except a few guys running the show it's not up to me. On top of that we're pretty set at nose tackle.

Think about a comment from Andy a couple months ago about the future of pass rushing being about getting pressure up the middle. This makes sense with how fast QBs are getting rid of the ball. The shortest distance to the QB is up the middle.

The two highest sack totals this year were Donald and Jones, both coming up the middle. With a 4-3 you have more guys in that middle so you would expect to get better pressure on the QB more consistently. Just not enough time on most plays for an outside guy to get home.

[ToxSocks]

Originally Posted by Hydrae

Think about a comment from Andy a couple months ago about the future of pass rushing being about getting pressure up the middle. This makes sense with how fast QBs are getting rid of the ball. The shortest distance to the QB is up the middle.

The two highest sack totals this year were Donald and Jones, both coming up the middle. With a 4-3 you have more guys in that middle so you would expect to get better pressure on the QB more consistently. Just not enough time on most plays for an outside guy to get home.

The 43 also means you don't need to waste roster spots on "run down" guys. There's no need to carry a big NT or 5 techs that specialize in simply being a "big body".

[saphojunkie]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

You don't put Dee Ford at DE. He's too small. You keep him at WLB and put Tanoh in at DE. I think the starting lineup going into training camp would be:

SDE - Allen Bailey/Breeland Speaks
SDT - Derrick Nnadi/Xavier Williams
WDT - Chris Jones/Justin Hamilton
WDE - Tanoh Kpassagnon
SLB - Justin Houston/Frank Zombo
MLB - (Sigh.) Anthony Hitchens/Reggie Ragland/Ben Niemann
WLB - Dee Ford/Dorian O'Daniel

I think the personnel are a good fit for a 4-3.

Bailey is gone. There is no reason to pay him what he's been getting, especially with this switch.

You can extend Houston three years, converting his entire 2019 salary into a signing bonus, which guarantees it, and with a reasonable yearly salary, bring his cap number way down, while still keeping him through Mahomes cheap years. I don't see why he wouldn't do that. It will beat what he can get on the open market, most likely, while also keeping him in house on a SB contender.

Dee Ford... I don't know if they honestly have a plan for him. It might just require getting in with his agent and seeing how the negotiation goes. For the right price, you keep him around as a pass rusher. Spagnuolo likes to get after the QB, and Ford is good at that.

I can see the lineup looking like this:

LEO: Ford/Kpass
NT: Nnadi/Williams
DT: Jones/Hamilton
SDE: Speaks/Houston
WILL: DoD/Nieman
MIKE: Hitchens
SAM: Houston

I am fairly certain you're going to see at least one addition to that group, and I wouldn't be shocked if Ford is gone and the money saved goes directly into the secondary.

[Iowanian]

Originally Posted by StinkBox

A 3-4 is a more flexible defense to run and harder to defend against. I hope the Chiefs don't decide to switch to a 4-3 but like everyone except a few guys running the show it's not up to me. On top of that we're pretty set at nose tackle.

I think your comment about it being more difficult for offenses was true with the 34 was an outlier and less common defense. It also was easier a few years ago to find important pieces because less teams were looking for the same OLBs and NT for example.

running the 4-3 makes sense to me because it will be easier to find pieces. Most colleges run 4-3 so it will less reliance on "project guys" to make into your scheme.

[The Franchise]

With as much as this team runs out of the nickle and dime looks.....running a 3-4 puts you at a disadvantage because of the type of linemen that you have for your base defense.

[JakeF]

Originally Posted by staylor26

If Vernon can play SLB in this scheme than Houston can. His coverage responsibilities won’t be that much different than they have been.

Why would you put Houston at any other position when DE fits him so well? Houston provides a pass rush without blitzing, something that every Defense needs. Houston and Jones bring a constant pass rush with no need to expose passing lanes by blitzing someone from the backend.

I would like to say the same about Dee Ford but he isn't physical enough to set the edge and play the run.

[ToxSocks]

Originally Posted by JakeF

Why would you put Houston at any other position when DE fits him so well? Houston provides a pass rush without blitzing, something that every Defense needs. Houston and Jones bring a constant pass rush with no need to expose passing lanes by blitzing someone from the backend.

I would like to say the same about Dee Ford but he isn't physical enough to set the edge and play the run.

I agree with all this.

[tmax63]

I disagree. I think you take off the coverage responsibilities from Ford and let him be a true DE he could do well. Only real problem I have with Ford is his injury history and him finally showing up, in a contract year. I think you end up keeping him or Houston but not both. DE's in FA aren't sexy pickups but good ones can be usually found.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

I agree with all this.

I don't think they can keep Ford and Houston. If they put Houston at DE....then the other DE is going to be Speaks.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by tmax63

I disagree. I think you take off the coverage responsibilities from Ford and let him be a true DE he could do well. Only real problem I have with Ford is his injury history and him finally showing up, in a contract year. I think you end up keeping him or Houston but not both. DE's in FA aren't sexy pickups but good ones can be usually found.

If you put Ford at DE.....teams are going to run over him.