"Official" 2011 St. Louis Cardinals Thread

[BigRedChief]

This is so unreal. We were dead. No hope. A season over. Somehow, someway we find some team chemistry and squeak into the playoffs on the last day of the season.

Only to find us facing one of the best pitching staffs assembled in years with home field advantage. We somehow, someway find a way to beat the best pitcher in baseball on the road in an elimination game.

We have to go on the road and beat the team with the best home record in baseball. A team who mortgaged their future to make this run .We somehow, someway find a way to beat them on the road and make our 18th World series trip.

We take game 1, we give away game 2 and home field advantage. Albert goes off for probably the best performance in World Series history and we take game 3 easily. Games 4 & 5 our bats fall asleep, Phone gate happens and its not looking too good.

Game 6, one of the best baseball games of all time and it takes place in a season ending go home game. Cardinals are down 2 runs in their final chance on the season, twice. They are down to their final strike of the season, twice. They give up a 2 run homer in extra innings. In the bottom of the inning their final 3 batters are a combined 3-26 in the Playoffs and a pitcher because the bench is empty. Somehow, someway they get some runners on and the comeback player of the year drives in the tying run. Mr. Freese hits the walk off home run. We will see you tommorrow night.

Game 7, With our bulldog on the mound pitching on 3 days rest he is able to give us 6 good innings and get us to within 9 outs of our 11 World series title. Texas meltsdown, probably left over from last nights game and its over.

The underdog, come back team who had no business even being in the playoffs wins a World championship. They make movies about events like this in life. Events that you remember even if your not a fan of the sport or team for the rest of your life.

When it is your team.......Priceless


.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

You know what the difference is? They aren't relying on guys with long injury histories to put together complete seasons.

The Brewers' best, most important players are all super durable.

You can use the injury ? about the Reds, for Volquez and Cueto, and for Rolen, but really not anyone else.

They may have a deeper bench but they still have issues between the ears. Neither the reds or brewers have shown any mental toughness that would be needed to get 90 wins in this division.

Tony has proven tim and time again that he can lead underdog teams to overperform to their level of talent. Maybe he can do it again, maybe not. But I'm not ready to throw in just yet, before the first pitch is even thrown in spring training.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Was Tony displaying that "mental toughness" when he was intentionally ****ing with Rasmus, or when he ran Rolen out of town, or when the entire locker room combusted last year under his petulant leadership?

You know what his "mental toughness" is? Dave Duncan, Chris Carpenter, Adam Wainwright, and Albert Pujols. And before that it was Dave Duncan, Dave Stewart, and Mark McGwire.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Was Tony displaying that "mental toughness" when he was intentionally ****ing with Rasmus, or when he ran Rolen out of town, or when the entire locker room combusted last year under his petulant leadership?

You know what his "mental toughness" is? Dave Duncan, Chris Carpenter, Adam Wainwright, and Albert Pujols. And before that it was Dave Duncan, Dave Stewart, and Mark McGwire.

I can't defend the stupid ass things Tony does like chasing off rolen and picking fights with a 5 tool player. Makes no sense to me.

But the historical record is there.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

I don't know if there are any solutions to this year. I think we may just have to weather the storm and hope Pujols agrees to a trade, and take it anew in 2012.

FYP

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

FYP

Yeah, that'd be awesome if he did that and then re-signed with us. Otherwise, the guy is worth the contract based on merchandise alone.

There are rare occasions when players supersede the value of a contract. They become so enmeshed into the fabric of the organization that they essentially become one and the same.

This is the problem with a sabermetric approach to the game. The guy isn't a disembodied 1.020 OPS, 45 HRs, and 8 WAR. You can't always have a dispassionate, robotic approach to building a roster.

If the Cardinals trade Pujols, or if they let him leave, they'll pay for it for the next decade plus.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Yeah, that'd be awesome if he did that and then re-signed with us. Otherwise, the guy is worth the contract based on merchandise alone.

There are rare occasions when players supersede the value of a contract. They become so enmeshed into the fabric of the organization that they essentially become one and the same.

This is the problem with a sabermetric approach to the game. The guy isn't a disembodied 1.020 OPS, 45 HRs, and 8 WAR. You can't always have a dispassionate, robotic approach to building a roster.

If the Cardinals trade Pujols, or if they let him leave, they'll pay for it for the next decade plus.

But again, Hamas - how do we actually improve with Albert? Again, this is not the Phillies, we're not trying to keep a championship caliber club intact. We're trying to hold together a team that has underachieving 3 of the last 4 seasons and pissed down its leg in the remaining one.

Sure, we could re-sign him and probably not get any worse for it. Cardinal management could choose to expand payroll in a manner that allows us to keep Pujols, Holliday, WW, Molina, etc...

But over the last 4 seasons, we've seen that a team built around that core group just isn't very good. Worse still, it damn sure isn't entertaining. I'll take losses if it's an entertaining product, but this club is boring and mediocre. It's far FAR less than the sum of its parts. If we sign Albert, we're locking ourself into 5+ years that are going to be almost exactly the same as the last 4, except that Holliday, Pujols, Molina and Carp will be older (or retired), WW will be coming off major surgery and Rasmus will likely be gone altogether.

Sure, the real problem is probably Tony LaRussa, but he's not going anywhere if Pujols comes back, book it. And if he doesn't leave, we're probably stuck with his little stooge Mozeliak as well. Sorry, but that's just not worth it. I simply will not watch this club any longer if that's what we're stuck with.

Even setting that aside, unless you're the Yankees and can spend whatever you want, it's just not wise to spend premium dollars on a non-premium position. It's just not that hard to get a 1b that plays premium defense and can give you 20 HRs and an OPS of .850. No, that's not Albert, but take the additional $25 million you'd save and allocate that towards a legitimate 3b option, or a SS that can hit, or a 2b that doesn't blow. Suddenly you're a far deeper lineup.

The Yankees can have that expensive 1b AND a deep lineup because they have bottomless pockets. Ditto the Red Sox and to a lesser extent, the Phillies and Mets. The Cardinals do not.

If the ballclub wants to actually win anything, it needs to move on. When you consider Albert's inevitable decline, Tony's influence on a poison clubhouse, and the questionable baseball logic in signing a 1b to a big money deal, I just don't see a happy ending to this. And just wait and see what happens to the legacy of Albert when he's in his mid-30s, putting up an OPS of .900, battling nagging leg injuries and toting around a contract that prevents us from competing.

I'll go on record now - if we re-sign Albert, we'll make the playoffs in fewer than 1/2 of his remaining seasons (in a shit division), and we won't win a single pennant, let alone championship.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

This. Come On man the most talented team doesn't win the ws every year. Murders row of pitching? How'd that turn out for Philly last year? We won it in 2006 with less talent than this team. It's not hopeless yet.

Absolute nonsense.

The 2006 squad blew the doors off the rest of the NL for the first 6 weeks of the season, then came injuries. When the guys came back healthy in September/October, suddenly we looked like the team that came out of the gates like a house afire.

The talent gap between the 2006 squad and the 2011 squad is staggering.

Hamas is spot on, this is a 3rd place club.

Milwaukee
Cincy

St. Louis

Chicago

Pittsburg
Houston


If Milwaukee can put together a bullpen, I could see them winning 95 games. They have a dynamic offense, a potentially elite SP staff and excellent team chemistry. If they are motivated and managed well, they could walk away with the division.

Cincy is the same team as last year, but better. They've replaced Harang with Chapman and guys like Bruce, Stubbs and Votto will only improve. I think they have a 92-93 win team.

The Cardinals will struggle to win 85. If forced to go on record now, I have them as an 80 win team. The team can't strike anyone out (bullpen included), they try to coax ground balls and they have the single worst defensive infield in MLB...makes sense to me. Berkman's already missing time because of a balky elbow (yeah, I'm sure that will improve), Rasmus is having daddy issues again and never did learn to lay off junk last season. Albert's going to press in his contract year and we know that leads to him expanding his strike zone.

Honest to god, I can see this team winning 70 easier than I could them winning 90. I don't see a single thing I like about this ballclub. The only upshot is that Larussa is probably the worst frontrunner I've ever seen, but he's at his best when he's an underdog. The Kile season was the best managing job I've ever seen and the 2004 squad wasn't far behind. Those were teams that were counted out that LaRussa somehow coaxed effort and energy out of. Last years team was a pathetic pile of slump-shouldered dogs. If they do that again this year, they could truly be a 90 loss team.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Absolute nonsense.

The 2006 squad blew the doors off the rest of the NL for the first 6 weeks of the season, then came injuries. When the guys came back healthy in September/October, suddenly we looked like the team that came out of the gates like a house afire.

your memory is not very clear on the end of the 2006 regular season. They were not on fire heading into the playoffs. They limped in, back doored in, fell into it because the rest of the division didn't want it either.


No friggin way you thought the 2006 team would do anything in the playoffs but get embrassed. If so, prove it....

[Rams Fan]

Holy shit, Carp and Boggs were both taken out of the game early because of injuries. WTF have the Cards done to piss off baseball gods? I dunno what Boggs injury is, but Strauss said that Carp's might involve something with his hamstring.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

your memory is not very clear on the end of the 2006 regular season. They were not on fire heading into the playoffs. They limped in, back doored in, fell into it because the rest of the division didn't want it either.


No friggin way you thought the 2006 team would do anything in the playoffs but get embrassed. If so, prove it....

I actually did.

I have no idea how I'd go about rooting up the posts on my Cardinals board, but as soon as the Astros lost the game that put the Cardinals in, I felt renewed. I told anyone that would listen that we could match up with anyone we faced in the playoffs. In fact, with every series I predicted the Cards in the right number of games.

I was genuinely excited about our chances going into that post-season. I like what Weaver had shown. I loved that Izzy was shelved and I thought I saw traces of Edmonds and Eck getting their form back. I also believed that any squad that had Carpenter to take the mound was capable of winning a 5 or 7 game series.

EDIT: Found my post - check your rep

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I actually did.

The only person in Cardinal nation who thought we had a chance. Touche

Now, why can't you be a little bit more upbeat this year before the first pitch is even thrown?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

Holy shit, Carp and Boggs were both taken out of the game early because of injuries. WTF have the Cards done to piss off baseball gods? I dunno what Boggs injury is, but Strauss said that Carp's might involve something with his hamstring.

What the **** do you think? When you don't pay the best player in the game what he's worth, the Gods frown upon you.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

What the **** do you think? When you don't pay the best player in the game what he's worth, the Gods frown upon you.

I still think the cards may be allowing the market to set the value of pujols instead of bidding against themselfs like they did with Holliday. It's a dangerous game. Hard feelings can develop during the year. But the cardinals surely realize that they can afford pujols because he will pay them back from a marketing aspect in those later years when his on the field skills are declining.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

They didn't bid against themselves with Holliday. They let him hit the market. The difference is that the market will give Albert 30 mil, other teams didn't want to give Holliday 7/120.

WRT: Marketing
If the Cards realized that, they would also realize that the risk of potentially saving $20 million on the contract isn't worth the risk of losing the best player in the history of the franchise and a generational talent.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

They didn't bid against themselves with Holliday. They let him hit the market. The difference is that the market will give Albert 30 mil, other teams didn't want to give Holliday 7/120.

WRT: Marketing
If the Cards realized that, they would also realize that the risk of potentially saving $20 million on the contract isn't worth the risk of losing the best player in the history of the franchise and a generational talent.

I agree. Someone, it only takes one team, will give him $300 million. It should be the cardinals.