Movies and TV The Official "Lost" the series discussion - Page 351

Deberg_1990 · 10-06-2004, 04:29 PM

I figured I would start a thread for this and see what happens....there seemed to be quite a few viewers on the board for this show the past few weeks.....I like the direction the show is taking so far......episode 3 tonight at 7 central on ABC....

**noa** · 05-12-2010, 11:59 PM

I'm on board with the idea that Jacob's brother is dead and smokey just took his form. Smokey can't kill Jacob because Jacob is the island's protector. Something about that prevents smokey from being able to kill Jacob or any of the candidates (remember when smokey saw dead Jacob, dead Jacob told him he couldn't kill Sawyer). Although I don't know how to reconcile that with his bomb killing Sun and Jin. Maybe the fact that he didn't make the bomb, and he used trickery to kill them like he had to do to kill Jacob.

It's not that smokey is MIB and MIB can't kill Jacob because they can't harm each other. "Mother" originally said they couldn't hurt each other, but we saw pretty clearly that Jacob could be the crap out of his brother and (in my mind) killed him. So that was just something "mother" said to allay their fears when MIB as a boy asked if they could hurt each other. I think she wanted to build up in their minds that other people are bad and dangerous and are a threat, and they (the two boys) are different, and they have a special role in life. Saying you can't hurt each other feeds that.

But who knows, I could be wrong about that. Maybe she did somehow make it so they can't hurt each other, and when Jacob tried to kill MIB, he violated that, and triggered bad consequences. Still, I lean in the direction of MIB being dead and smokey being a separate entity who just took his form.

I'm not sure about who leveled the village. I'm not buying that it was "mother" as smokey because I agree with Dane that smokey is impervious to physical attacks and "mother" clearly was not. But the writers definitely made you think it was "mother." So maybe it was "mother," and she is capable of that type of destruction when protecting the island. If your role is to live forever and protect the island and keep people from the light, I'm guessing that comes with some special abilities to help you in your protecting duties. I think if it was "mother," that doesn't necessarily make her smokey.

For the question about how Jacob leaves the island to touch the candidates, I don't see why its so crazy to think that if other people can leave the island (like we've seen), he can, too. He just chooses to come back because he is the protector. And the island can be protected in his absence (or at least smokey can be prevented from leaving), as we've seen evidenced by the fact that smokey is still confined and Jacob is dead. I'm guessing that there are safeguards, like having a candidate present on the island, or maybe Richard Alpert. I have no idea how Jacob knew how to build the lighthouse and watch people's lives and make selections, though. I would like to see that answered, or I would at least to be given some stronger clues than to just be told that he could do it. Because that seems to be something "mother" couldn't do. She had to wait until her replacement came along fortuitously. Jacob is able to identify candidates and bring them to the island.

As for the show not answering questions about Egyptian stuff and other ancient stuff, I don't really care about that. I figure they aren't going to give you concrete answers about every single thing. They just made it clear that whatever has been going on on the island has been happening for ages. We continue to learn about the island's properties, everyone's roles, etc. We can piece things together. I don't feel the need to know the exact specifics of who landed on the island and when and what they did. I think they are showing us enough about the island and its properties without answering all of that in explicit detail.

I expect that when the show is completely over, they are not going to answer every single thing for us, but will give us enough that we can figure out things on our own. Or at least have some solid theories. I'll be happy with that. I think any show like this is tough because you can either leave some questions to be pondered, and disappoint people who wanted everything answered specifically, or you can attempt to answer everything, and disappoint the people who just aren't satisfied with the answers you give them. Personally, I'd rather have some things to think about and theorize about when it's all said and done than to be given answers that may just not be satisfying enough.

I just hope the ending involves more stuff with Desmond and Farraday. Those are my favorite storylines in the show.

**BigRedChief** · 05-13-2010, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noa

I'm on board with the idea that Jacob's brother is dead and smokey just took his form. Smokey can't kill Jacob because Jacob is the island's protector. Something about that prevents smokey from being able to kill Jacob or any of the candidates (remember when smokey saw dead Jacob, dead Jacob told him he couldn't kill Sawyer). Although I don't know how to reconcile that with his bomb killing Sun and Jin. Maybe the fact that he didn't make the bomb, and he used trickery to kill them like he had to do to kill Jacob.

The candidate could be Sun and Jin's daughter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by noa

I just hope the ending involves more stuff with Desmond and Farraday. Those are my favorite storylines in the show.

Desmond is defintely central to whats happening at the end. Last time we saw him he was in the well that was where the light was. He's a central point in both timelines. Sayid sacrificed himself and told them about how to find Desmond.

tymania · 05-13-2010, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

The candidate could be Sun and Jin's daughter.

Desmond is defintely central to whats happening at the end. Last time we saw him he was in the well that was where the light was. He's a central point in both timelines. Sayid sacrificed himself and told them about how to find Desmond.

I was assuming that the well that MIB dug, and was going to put that wheel in was the swan station in present time!? So i am not sure if i agree with the fact that the light is in the well that desmond was in.. but it def could be and they just dont know it..

Chiefnj2 · 05-13-2010, 07:20 AM

More proof that Austin and I are correct ,from an interview with Cuse and Darlton:

"We wanted to explain why the Man in Black had behaved the way that he does, and to show that like a lot of other characters on the show, he's the victim of very bad parenting. To reduce him to just a supernatural force, as opposed to a person, was not our intent. "Across the Sea" was our attempt to say, "Here's why Jacob feels the way he does about people, why the Man in Black feels the way he does about people," and a bit about their childhood. It's as simple as that and as complex as the themes of the show are."

Shag · 05-13-2010, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

I think the scene was shown for two reasons:

1. To reveal the consequences of entering the light in the cave.
2. To reveal that Jacob's twin brother was actually dead and NOT the Smoke Monster.

The Smoke Monster is able to take the form of any dead human that it thinks will benefit it in its attempt to escape the island.

First, it used the identity of Jacob's dead brother but after hundreds (maybe thousands) of years, it figures out that the MIB's identity does him no good. So, he hatches a plot (as we saw in Season Five) to where he can take the identity of John Locke, knowing that people trust and will follow him, thus helping the Smoke Monster to get off the island.

I think the writers made it a point to confuse the viewer as to the Smoke Monster's real identity by having the MIB want to leave the island as well.

What consequences of entering the light? Death? Releasing a smoke monster? How do you reconcile the "fate worse than death" comment by the mother?

I just think it's way too simple to just say the MIB is dead, and the smoke monster just happened to emerge from the cave as he died. Personally, I think that scene becomes almost pointless unless the two are tied together.

Why would the writers want to confuse the view as to smokey's real identity? They were already confused prior to this episode, as no origin story had ever been revealed - it was simply an unexplained "monster" that could take the form of dead bodies on the island. Further confusing that story doesn't add anything, IMHO.

**noa** · 05-13-2010, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

More proof that Austin and I are correct ,from an interview with Cuse and Darlton:

"We wanted to explain why the Man in Black had behaved the way that he does, and to show that like a lot of other characters on the show, he's the victim of very bad parenting. To reduce him to just a supernatural force, as opposed to a person, was not our intent. "Across the Sea" was our attempt to say, "Here's why Jacob feels the way he does about people, why the Man in Black feels the way he does about people," and a bit about their childhood. It's as simple as that and as complex as the themes of the show are."

Interesting. Well, I guess if smokey is MIB, that doesn't really change a whole lot from what I thought before this episode. And the fact that MIB's actual body has been dead for a while is ok because real Locke's actual body has been dead, too. Smokey doesn't actually inhabit their dead bodies, he can just recreate them.

I don't think that episode really showed us why Jacob feels the way he does about people. I don't think they had anything in that episode to give Jacob a reason to believe people are good. He finds out "mother" killed his actual mother and has been lying to him. His brother abandons him. His brother tells him that the other people in the island actually are selfish and greedy and malevolent. His brother then kills "mother." Then he kills his brother. What in that storyline explains why Jacob believes in humanity?

Red Brooklyn · 05-13-2010, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

More proof that Austin and I are correct ,from an interview with Cuse and Darlton:

"We wanted to explain why the Man in Black had behaved the way that he does, and to show that like a lot of other characters on the show, he's the victim of very bad parenting. To reduce him to just a supernatural force, as opposed to a person, was not our intent. "Across the Sea" was our attempt to say, "Here's why Jacob feels the way he does about people, why the Man in Black feels the way he does about people," and a bit about their childhood. It's as simple as that and as complex as the themes of the show are."

You guys are absolutely right. To me the episode was showing how MIB was robbed of his human body and turned into Smokey. By Jacob.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

There may be something to that idea.

John Locke was supposedly told by Jacob to move the island. John never wanted to leave the island, as he loved it and thought he understood it. Once he moved the island, he was sent back to civilization, where Ben Linus killed him. Once dead, the Smoke Monster assumed his identity.

Now, was it the Smoke Monster acting as Jacob that told Locke to move the island, thus condemning him to death so that the Smoke Monster could assume his identity or was it the Smoke Monster himself pretending to be Jacob?

I have a feeling we'll never know.

I personally don't think there's any doubt that Jacob had nothing to do, and Smokey had everything to do with Locke moving the island. That wasn't Jacob at all.

1. Jacob doesn't get involved.
2. Smokey told us he was using Christian's form.
3. Christian tells Locke to turn the wheel.
4. It's Smokey (as Locke) that tells real Locke (through Richard) that he's going to have to die.

The whole Locke moving the island thing was all part of Smokey's plan. It was all part of the "loophole." The way to kill Jacob.

tymania · 05-13-2010, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noa

Interesting. Well, I guess if smokey is MIB, that doesn't really change a whole lot from what I thought before this episode. And the fact that MIB's actual body has been dead for a while is ok because real Locke's actual body has been dead, too. Smokey doesn't actually inhabit their dead bodies, he can just recreate them.

I don't think that episode really showed us why Jacob feels the way he does about people. I don't think they had anything in that episode to give Jacob a reason to believe people are good. He finds out "mother" killed his actual mother and has been lying to him. His brother abandons him. His brother tells him that the other people in the island actually are selfish and greedy and malevolent. His brother then kills "mother." Then he kills his brother. What in that storyline explains why Jacob believes in humanity?

but smokey cant recreate bodies that have been buried, right?

Red Brooklyn · 05-13-2010, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tymania

but smokey cant recreate bodies that have been buried, right?

There's never really been a definate answer to this. However, we've never seen Smokey appear as someone who has been buried. Also, there have been characters in the past that have insisted on buring bodies.

I'm of the mind that, no, Smokey can not take the form of someone who's been buried.

Chiefnj2 · 05-13-2010, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noa

I don't think that episode really showed us why Jacob feels the way he does about people. I don't think they had anything in that episode to give Jacob a reason to believe people are good. He finds out "mother" killed his actual mother and has been lying to him. His brother abandons him. His brother tells him that the other people in the island actually are selfish and greedy and malevolent. His brother then kills "mother." Then he kills his brother. What in that storyline explains why Jacob believes in humanity?

I agree, Jacob's character development has been horrible. His "mother" lied to him about everything, yet he decided to believe her about the magical power of the light and evil escaping from it.

They obviously didn't think MIB/Jacob through all that clearly. In an episode years ago (maybe the flashback) Jack said the clothes of Adam and Eve were about 50 years old. It ends up it is more like 2000 years old.

tymania · 05-13-2010, 10:52 AM

wheres WALT??? my prediction is he is the corner stone to stopping MIB.. if i remember right didnt walt have a knack for kill things? like in earlier episodes in a flashback didnt he kill birds by making them fly into the window? and then his mom died and his step father didnt want him because he thought he was cursed or something.. and that is how michael ended up with him..
Just some food for thought.. and i thought i read somewhere that Walt was making an appearance this season!? hasnt happened yet..

Red Brooklyn · 05-13-2010, 11:15 AM

I would LOVE for Walt to show up again. Sorry for the hyperbole, but nothing would make me happier!

However, given last night's revelations, it seems like Desmond will have to be the one to destroy Smokey. That is, if Smokey is to be destroyed. Smokey seems born from the light in the cave, which is (as we know) some kind of electromagnetic energy. And only one character on the show has been able to withstand contact with large amounts of EM energy. Desmond.

Jack might be the new protector, but I think Des will be the giant killer (so to speak).

Mile High Mania · 05-13-2010, 11:27 AM

I think Walt plays a part in the final...

Don't forget that many times we've been told (mainly by MIB and Jacob) that things keep happening the same way, history keeps repeating itself... no matter what happens.

So, just as power over the island was moved from Jacob's mom to him... something happened prior to that, and something is about to happen again. I see this ending with another cycle beginning.

And, I don't think it's going to be who we all think.. not Jack, not Hurley... I have no idea and I think we're going to be pleasantly surprised for the most part.

Mile High Mania · 05-13-2010, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Brooklyn

I would LOVE for Walt to show up again. Sorry for the hyperbole, but nothing would make me happier!

However, given last night's revelations, it seems like Desmond will have to be the one to destroy Smokey. That is, if Smokey is to be destroyed. Smokey seems born from the light in the cave, which is (as we know) some kind of electromagnetic energy. And only one character on the show has been able to withstand contact with large amounts of EM energy. Desmond.

Jack might be the new protector, but I think Des will be the giant killer (so to speak).

And, if that happens ... remember that MIB was 'special' before killing his mother and ultimately becoming Smokey... you might see Desmond become the new Smokey with someone like Sawyer becoming the new Jacob.

**DaneMcCloud** · 05-13-2010, 11:36 AM

IF the MIB was able to keep his identity intact after transforming into the The Smoke Monster, the producers have some explaining to do:

1. What is the "Light"?
2. Why is it dangerous?
3. IF the MIB were to escape the island, why would everything "cease to exist"?
4. Does the MIB KNOW that if he escapes, everything will "cease to exist" or is he only thinking of himself without considering the consequences?
5. Can the Smoke Monster be killed?
6. Why is Jacob allowed to freely come and go from the island to the rest of the world?

At one time, I had faith in the producers that they would adequately reveal most of the mysteries of the island and that those mysteries would make logical sense.

Now, I'm not so sure.

This episode felt "tacked on" and in an effort to stay true to the rest of the series by "not revealing too much", I think they opened a can of worms that really displaces the mythology they've created over the past six years.

10-06-2004, 04:29 PM
Deberg_1990 In Search of a Life Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: San Antonio Tx. Casino cash: $3624454	The Official "Lost" the series discussion I figured I would start a thread for this and see what happens....there seemed to be quite a few viewers on the board for this show the past few weeks.....I like the direction the show is taking so far......episode 3 tonight at 7 central on ABC....
Posts: 66,914

05-12-2010, 11:59 PM	#5251
noa Band Join Date: Sep 2005 Casino cash: $1205453	I'm on board with the idea that Jacob's brother is dead and smokey just took his form. Smokey can't kill Jacob because Jacob is the island's protector. Something about that prevents smokey from being able to kill Jacob or any of the candidates (remember when smokey saw dead Jacob, dead Jacob told him he couldn't kill Sawyer). Although I don't know how to reconcile that with his bomb killing Sun and Jin. Maybe the fact that he didn't make the bomb, and he used trickery to kill them like he had to do to kill Jacob. It's not that smokey is MIB and MIB can't kill Jacob because they can't harm each other. "Mother" originally said they couldn't hurt each other, but we saw pretty clearly that Jacob could be the crap out of his brother and (in my mind) killed him. So that was just something "mother" said to allay their fears when MIB as a boy asked if they could hurt each other. I think she wanted to build up in their minds that other people are bad and dangerous and are a threat, and they (the two boys) are different, and they have a special role in life. Saying you can't hurt each other feeds that. But who knows, I could be wrong about that. Maybe she did somehow make it so they can't hurt each other, and when Jacob tried to kill MIB, he violated that, and triggered bad consequences. Still, I lean in the direction of MIB being dead and smokey being a separate entity who just took his form. I'm not sure about who leveled the village. I'm not buying that it was "mother" as smokey because I agree with Dane that smokey is impervious to physical attacks and "mother" clearly was not. But the writers definitely made you think it was "mother." So maybe it was "mother," and she is capable of that type of destruction when protecting the island. If your role is to live forever and protect the island and keep people from the light, I'm guessing that comes with some special abilities to help you in your protecting duties. I think if it was "mother," that doesn't necessarily make her smokey. For the question about how Jacob leaves the island to touch the candidates, I don't see why its so crazy to think that if other people can leave the island (like we've seen), he can, too. He just chooses to come back because he is the protector. And the island can be protected in his absence (or at least smokey can be prevented from leaving), as we've seen evidenced by the fact that smokey is still confined and Jacob is dead. I'm guessing that there are safeguards, like having a candidate present on the island, or maybe Richard Alpert. I have no idea how Jacob knew how to build the lighthouse and watch people's lives and make selections, though. I would like to see that answered, or I would at least to be given some stronger clues than to just be told that he could do it. Because that seems to be something "mother" couldn't do. She had to wait until her replacement came along fortuitously. Jacob is able to identify candidates and bring them to the island. As for the show not answering questions about Egyptian stuff and other ancient stuff, I don't really care about that. I figure they aren't going to give you concrete answers about every single thing. They just made it clear that whatever has been going on on the island has been happening for ages. We continue to learn about the island's properties, everyone's roles, etc. We can piece things together. I don't feel the need to know the exact specifics of who landed on the island and when and what they did. I think they are showing us enough about the island and its properties without answering all of that in explicit detail. I expect that when the show is completely over, they are not going to answer every single thing for us, but will give us enough that we can figure out things on our own. Or at least have some solid theories. I'll be happy with that. I think any show like this is tough because you can either leave some questions to be pondered, and disappoint people who wanted everything answered specifically, or you can attempt to answer everything, and disappoint the people who just aren't satisfied with the answers you give them. Personally, I'd rather have some things to think about and theorize about when it's all said and done than to be given answers that may just not be satisfying enough. I just hope the ending involves more stuff with Desmond and Farraday. Those are my favorite storylines in the show. __________________ Sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes, well, he eats you.
Posts: 8,302

05-13-2010, 07:20 AM	#5254
Chiefnj2 In Search of a Life Join Date: Mar 2007 Casino cash: $7813688	More proof that Austin and I are correct ,from an interview with Cuse and Darlton: "We wanted to explain why the Man in Black had behaved the way that he does, and to show that like a lot of other characters on the show, he's the victim of very bad parenting. To reduce him to just a supernatural force, as opposed to a person, was not our intent. "Across the Sea" was our attempt to say, "Here's why Jacob feels the way he does about people, why the Man in Black feels the way he does about people," and a bit about their childhood. It's as simple as that and as complex as the themes of the show are." __________________ Mismanaging the clock.
Posts: 22,396

05-13-2010, 10:52 AM	#5261
tymania Love it or Leave it USA#1 Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Council Bluffs, Iowa Casino cash: $10004900	wheres WALT??? my prediction is he is the corner stone to stopping MIB.. if i remember right didnt walt have a knack for kill things? like in earlier episodes in a flashback didnt he kill birds by making them fly into the window? and then his mom died and his step father didnt want him because he thought he was cursed or something.. and that is how michael ended up with him.. Just some food for thought.. and i thought i read somewhere that Walt was making an appearance this season!? hasnt happened yet..
Posts: 813

05-13-2010, 11:15 AM	#5262
Red Brooklyn Veteran Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Brooklyn, NY Casino cash: $8051398	I would LOVE for Walt to show up again. Sorry for the hyperbole, but nothing would make me happier! However, given last night's revelations, it seems like Desmond will have to be the one to destroy Smokey. That is, if Smokey is to be destroyed. Smokey seems born from the light in the cave, which is (as we know) some kind of electromagnetic energy. And only one character on the show has been able to withstand contact with large amounts of EM energy. Desmond. Jack might be the new protector, but I think Des will be the giant killer (so to speak).
Posts: 3,833

05-13-2010, 11:27 AM	#5263
Mile High Mania #triggering Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Tejas Casino cash: $3387229	I think Walt plays a part in the final... Don't forget that many times we've been told (mainly by MIB and Jacob) that things keep happening the same way, history keeps repeating itself... no matter what happens. So, just as power over the island was moved from Jacob's mom to him... something happened prior to that, and something is about to happen again. I see this ending with another cycle beginning. And, I don't think it's going to be who we all think.. not Jack, not Hurley... I have no idea and I think we're going to be pleasantly surprised for the most part. __________________
Posts: 30,352

05-13-2010, 11:36 AM	#5265
DaneMcCloud Supporter Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Hollywood, CA Casino cash: $10053648	IF the MIB was able to keep his identity intact after transforming into the The Smoke Monster, the producers have some explaining to do: 1. What is the "Light"? 2. Why is it dangerous? 3. IF the MIB were to escape the island, why would everything "cease to exist"? 4. Does the MIB KNOW that if he escapes, everything will "cease to exist" or is he only thinking of himself without considering the consequences? 5. Can the Smoke Monster be killed? 6. Why is Jacob allowed to freely come and go from the island to the rest of the world? At one time, I had faith in the producers that they would adequately reveal most of the mysteries of the island and that those mysteries would make logical sense. Now, I'm not so sure. This episode felt "tacked on" and in an effort to stay true to the rest of the series by "not revealing too much", I think they opened a can of worms that really displaces the mythology they've created over the past six years.
Posts: 88,960