Books Book Review: War Room - The Legacy of Bill Belichick/Art of Building Perfect Team - Page 4

**OnTheWarpath15** · 11-08-2011, 05:51 PM

I know some of you are really interested in hearing more about this book, and I promised to read it and report - so here goes. I decided I'd post as I read, instead of making you wait for the whole thing.

First post? A few quotes from Chapters 1 and 2, which focus on the Browns era, how the relationship between BB/Pioli/Dimitroff started and grew, and the move to NE through the 1st SB season.

Nothing earth shattering yet, but this is what stood out to me.

Quote:

I truly believe you have to put pressure on professional athletes to get the most out of them. You have to threaten them with their jobs. Especially certain guys who get contracts and get comfortable - and add to that a coach who enables them - and they forget to work.

- Tedy Bruschi, the enabling coach he's speaking of is Pete Carroll

I'm going to paraphrase the beginning because it's long in the book.

Quote:

I'll tell you this story, but it's mean, but it's the brutality of the NFL. Drew (Bledsoe) is one of my best friends, but I was talking to my brother on the phone on the way home from the stadium and told him, "No wonder Drew got the crap knocked out of him, he's been holding the ball too long all year."

Direct Quote: "That's the frustration I was having with Drew at the time...that's just the way football is. It's either you're helping us win, or you're not."

- Tedy Bruschi

Referencing Belichick, minutes after beating the Rams in the SB:

Quote:

He then went on to say, with all respect, that the team that had just won the Super Bowl had a lot of work to do to reach the ideal of consistent championship contender. It meant that the front office, coaches and scouts, were going to have to get back to work soon. And the team on the field shouldn't get too comfortable. He was asked how many players on the Super Bowl Champs would have to be replaced before he could call them perennial championship threats. He didn't hesitate"

"About twenty."

More later tonight if I have the time.

-King- · 11-09-2011, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frosty

It's easy to play with someone else's money.

I'd agree with this if Pioli and Dimitroff weren't good friends. Since they are, I don't think Pioli would lie to Dimitroff.
Posted via Mobile Device

Amnorix · 11-09-2011, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconic

Both of them were absolute busts weren't they?

Jackson was a complete bust.

Maroney sucked, but wasn't a COMPLETE bust. He at least saw the playing field some etc. But yeah, both were very bad picks relative to where they were taken.

Frosty · 11-09-2011, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -King-

I'd agree with this if Pioli and Dimitroff weren't good friends. Since they are, I don't think Pioli would lie to Dimitroff.
Posted via Mobile Device

Maybe he thinks he would do it but I haven't seen any evidence that Pioli would actually make a move like that (not sure I would want him to, either, unless it was for a QB).

Nightfyre · 11-09-2011, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Jackson was a complete bust.

Maroney sucked, but wasn't a COMPLETE bust. He at least saw the playing field some etc. But yeah, both were very bad picks relative to where they were taken.

Given the drafting conducted by the patriots in 2010 and 2011, would you say Pioli was the brain, Belichick was the brain, or they were both the brain?

Amnorix · 11-09-2011, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightfyre

Given the drafting conducted by the patriots in 2010 and 2011, would you say Pioli was the brain, Belichick was the brain, or they were both the brain?

I'd say both.

The Pats had, generally, good to great drafts from 2001-05. '06-'08 were by and large very bad. Partly because some of those draft classes were weak, but partly because the Pats made very poor picks.

Lately they have been better.

What is STUNNINGLY clear is that the Patriots, both before/after Pioli, can't seem to figure out what a good DB prospect looks like. We have invested a MOUNTAIN of high picks and many of them are gone now, as complete busts. It's horrible.

Frosty · 11-09-2011, 10:55 AM

I wonder what the Pats' drafts would look like if they actually used some of those high picks instead of constantly trading back?

Amnorix · 11-09-2011, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frosty

I wonder what the Pats' drafts would look like if they actually used some of those high picks instead of constantly trading back?

In some cases the trade backs were disastrous. In others they paid off handsomely.

But remember -- when they trade back they get extra picks, which they then use, sooner or later.

When the Patriots traded their #1 away to the Ravens in 2003 they got the Ravens #2, and a #1 the next year.

The #2 was Eugene Wilson, who was a pretty solid safety for us for a few years. the #1 turned out to be some stiff named Vince Wilfork.

All in all, very nice.

Other years, we traded back so Green Bay could get Clay Matthews, and we get, among others, Darius Butler. DOH!

milkman · 11-09-2011, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnorix

In some cases the trade backs were disastrous. In others they paid off handsomely.

But remember -- when they trade back they get extra picks, which they then use, sooner or later.

When the Patriots traded their #1 away to the Ravens in 2003 they got the Ravens #2, and a #1 the next year.

The #2 was Eugene Wilson, who was a pretty solid safety for us for a few years. the #1 turned out to be some stiff named Vince Wilfork.

All in all, very nice.

Other years, we traded back so Green Bay could get Clay Matthews, and we get, among others, Darius Butler. DOH!

You do pick up some solid players, but at the end of the day, defense today needs playmakers in the second and third level, and the Patriots don't have that now, and haven't for a number of years.

Your best chance to pick up those playmakers come in the first round.

Amnorix · 11-09-2011, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

You do pick up some solid players, but at the end of the day, defense today needs playmakers in the second and third level, and the Patriots don't have that now, and haven't for a number of years.

Your best chance to pick up those playmakers come in the first round.

It's not for lack of effort. Brandon Meriweather was a 1st round pick at Safety. Gone.

Darius Butler was a high 2nd. Bust.

Devin McCourty was a 1st. Great last year, not so great this year.

Leigh Bodden (free agent) was very solid for us in 2009. Lost last year to injury. This year, suddenly, BUST. Cut.

In addition to those guys, since 2003:

Wilhite (4th)
Wheatley (2nd)
Ras-I Dowling (first pick in 2nd round)
Pat Chung (second pick in 2dn round)
Ellis Hobbs (3rd)
Guss Scott (3rd)
Asante Samuel (4th)

So it's not lack of investment. It's poor choices.

Frosty · 11-09-2011, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnorix

In some cases the trade backs were disastrous. In others they paid off handsomely.

But remember -- when they trade back they get extra picks, which they then use, sooner or later.

Last year, didn't they have like 6 picks in the first two rounds and then traded out of a bunch of them?

Amnorix · 11-09-2011, 11:14 AM

Also note the trade backs are based on a theory -- one that I agree with.

Draft picks are inherently risky and you're dealing with an unknown. Even the best drafters will miss a high percentage of the time. The more picks you have, the more likely you are to have more hits (even if your miss percentage is the same as everyone else's).

In 2007 the Patriots traded their #1 pick to the Niners so the Niners could select Joe Staley at #28. They got back a 4th rounder, that they flipped to the Raiders for Randy Moss, and got the Niners 1st round pick in 2008. That pick was at #7. The Pats traded back to #10 to get the guy they wanted, LB Jerod Mayo. They got an extra 3rd in that trade, which turned out to be a LB that didn't work out.

But you can see the theory. It works. It's good. The Pats lost "their" 1st round pick that year due to spygate, but still got Mayo at #10 because of their "system".

I approve of the system. 100%. It's the actual PICKS made that have been lacking in some areas, especially DB, for some time.

Amnorix · 11-09-2011, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frosty

Last year, didn't they have like 6 picks in the first two rounds and then traded out of a bunch of them?

Yes, partly because we had too many picks.

Thsi is what we USED:

1st Round – Nate Solder, OT, Colorado
2nd Round – Ras-I Dowling, DB, Virginia
2nd Round – Shane Vereen, RB, Cal
3rd Round – Stevan Ridley, RB, LSU
3rd Round – Ryan Mallett, QB, Arkansas
5th Round – Marcus Cannon, OL, TCU
5th Round – Lee Smith, TE, Marshall
6th Round – Markell Carter, OLB, Central Arkansas
7th Round – Malcolm Williams, CB, Marshall

This is what we traded:

Picks traded away:
1st Round (NWO – 2012 1st, 2011 2nd)
3rd Round (OAK – 2012 2nd)
4th Round (Oak – 2012 2nd)
4th Round (SEA – Deion Branch) (via DEN (Maroney) if higher than NE pick)
6th Round (DEN – Laurence Maroney)
7th Round (ATL – Quinn Ojinnaka)

We have, somewhat suprisingly, trade away alot of our 2012 picks.

This is where things stand for 2012:

1st Round
1st Round (New Orleans)
2nd Round (Oakland)
2nd Round
3rd Round
4th Round

Picks traded away:

7th Round – (KC – Jarrad Page)
7th Round – (MIN – Randy Moss)
6th Round – (PHI – Tracy White)
5th Round – (CIN – Chad Ochocinco)

Hammock Parties · 11-09-2011, 10:22 PM

Patriot Years

-Pioli and Belichick settled on Stephen Jackson before Vince Wilfork fell to them

-Huge scouting rift between scouts and Belichick on the Maroney and Chad Jackson picks. Belichick wanted the players and scouts/Pioli didn’t. Led to the unravelling of things.

-Belichick on the Patriots system in the draft “The first round you want guys with the fewest questions. The second round you find a lot of players with first round talent but not first round performance or production. The third round, you see guys who are maybe better football players than a lot of guys in the second, but dont have the measurements. The highest bust factor is in the second.

Pioli Interview/First Year

-Hunt thought just getting Pioli to interview was good. When he accepted, Hunt was ecstatic.

-Pioli to Hunt during interview on all organizations but later it said how the Chiefs personified this: “There’s this living, breathing dysfunction with football organizations and it pits lifetime employees vs. temporary employees. It’s insane. You need the help of all these people to do the job well. It’s not just the players. It’s the equipment people, the grounds crew, community relations, marketing...”

-Came here because of his love for Lamar Hunt and because he feels like it would be the ultimate challenge to win a championship here.

-Said the first week in the office he saw this as copies were printed out in all color for no reason costing the organization minimum $10,000 per year for no reason.

-Also saw it when scouts were messing around and surfing the internet during tape review.

-As soon as he got in, he tried to get Gonzalez to stay by selling him on a rebuild but Tony balked and wanted out.

-Book vaguely blames the 3 months of prep time as the reason for the first year draft not panning out

Pioli Offseason 2011

-After last year “We’re just not good enough. At the end of the year, when we couldn’t sneak up on teams and we played good teams, we felt it. What do we need? There aren’t many positions we can look at and say we don’t need help there. We’ve got holes today, but we also have holes a year from now. I’ve seen a great roster. We are so far away from a great roster. So far away. You know we couldn’t get anyone open to catch a pass in the play-offs.”

-In Mobile for Senior Bowl, Chiefs scout Jim Nagy wanted two guys Rodney Hudson and Ricky Stanzi.

-Nagy on Hudson- “This guy is gonna be a good pro. Really impressive guy. He was essentially an offensive line coach on the field”

-Nagy on Stanzi- “If I could pick a quarterback who we will all look back at in 5 years and say ‘Can you believe he lasted that long,’ it would be Stanzi. Most improved player I saw all year. He was watching tape of Senior Bowl practice on his own.

-Haley is a huge Zorn fan and considers Zorn to be a Quarterback guru, which admittedly he is not.

-Chiefs beat out the Titans and Jags for Zorn.

-Each scout report asks six questions in the Chiefs scouting system

What will this player’s role be as a Chief?
Will the role change from year one to year two?
How many downs can he be expected to play?
Which current player on the roster will he beat out?
What’s his value on special teams?
Does he have positional versatility?

-On how the scouts see Weigman: They rave about his durability, toughness and willingness to compete, but all agree that his starting days are over.

-Pioli high on Pouncey and Jason Kelce, who reminds him of Dan Koppen and Olin Kruetz. Kelce sounds like a perfect Chief “throwback, mean, nasty, agressive”

-Scouts on Ingram: “For the Chiefs, he is a younger, more athletic version of Thomas Jones. He’s not as fast as Jamaal but is a more complete back that can stay healthy on the field for three downs. See him as a replacement for Jones and a compliment to Charles.” However, Chiefs brass knew they were not spending a first rounder on Running Back.

-Final Question to all first rounders, “Is he a guy who can help us win championships or a guy who will be the REASON we could win championships.”

The Draft

-One of the top 3 players on the Chiefs board was Aldon Smith.

-Pioli was willing to trade up 6 spots from 21 to 15 to take Mike Pouncey but could not agree on a deal. They viewed him as “day one starter int he league, with smarts, toughness, and the type of talent to transform the entire line.”

-Chiefs felt good at 21 because they saw several players that they would take. Deal from Cleveland was “too good to ignore”.

-Haley “delighted” at the Baldwin pick. Chiefs are “thrilled” to get him because Haley gets the most out of wide receivers. Haley saw the same traits in Baldwin that he saw and brought out in Fitzgerald, Owens, and Keyshawn. Specifically picked him because of how the Ravens took Bowe out of the game.

-Falcons rated Wisnewski as a “fourth or fifth rounder”

-Rams called the Chiefs and offered 112 in the fourth for our 118 in the fourth and 223. Pioli turned it down. 112 was Greg Salas and 118 was Jalil Brown. Haley excited about Brown. Pioli, “He’s got a chance to be a good player.”

-Chiefs looking to deal up to get ahead of Buffalo at 133 for Stanzi. Calls the Ravens and offers our fifth (135) and one of the two 7ths we have next year. Ozzie Newsome calls back and wants next years 5th. Pioli says no. Pioli thinks he has a deal with Houston for 127, so much so that he called our guy in New York and wrote down Stanzi’s name, but the Texans pick instead. Colts call and offer next years 4th for our 5th this year and Pioli says no. Stanzi is approaching. Dallas calls and want to give up 143 and 175 for 135. Pioli says no again sensing Stanzi. Buffalo picks Johnny White at 133 and we get Stanzi.

-Chiefs picked Gabe Miller off his individual workout, which was so good scouts talked about it around the office.

-Hunt says to Houston “I’m excited to see you play.” Houston says back, “And I am going to make sure I give you a reason to notice me on the field. I’m excited to play.”

-Pioli has his eye on Kelce at 199. Pioli is stunned when Philadelphia picks him.

-New target at 199: Powe. Concerns- Health and Weight. Scouts were fine on his intelligence and Pioli was livid when it was even brought up because he was dealing with Attention Deficit Disorder and was a determined student who got respect in the classroom. Haley tells him to keep in shape.

-Everyone thought the last day of this year’s draft was very good.

Hammock Parties · 11-09-2011, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Also saw it when scouts were messing around and surfing the internet during tape review.

What a joke...

O.city · 11-09-2011, 10:27 PM

It's amazing to me that we have learned more today, from this book, than 3 years of KC reporters.

11-09-2011, 10:55 AM	#51
Frosty Go Beavers! Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Washington Casino cash: $3358243	I wonder what the Pats' drafts would look like if they actually used some of those high picks instead of constantly trading back?
Posts: 14,541

11-09-2011, 11:14 AM	#56
Amnorix In BB I trust Join Date: May 2003 Location: Boston, Mass. Casino cash: $10029808	Also note the trade backs are based on a theory -- one that I agree with. Draft picks are inherently risky and you're dealing with an unknown. Even the best drafters will miss a high percentage of the time. The more picks you have, the more likely you are to have more hits (even if your miss percentage is the same as everyone else's). In 2007 the Patriots traded their #1 pick to the Niners so the Niners could select Joe Staley at #28. They got back a 4th rounder, that they flipped to the Raiders for Randy Moss, and got the Niners 1st round pick in 2008. That pick was at #7. The Pats traded back to #10 to get the guy they wanted, LB Jerod Mayo. They got an extra 3rd in that trade, which turned out to be a LB that didn't work out. But you can see the theory. It works. It's good. The Pats lost "their" 1st round pick that year due to spygate, but still got Mayo at #10 because of their "system". I approve of the system. 100%. It's the actual PICKS made that have been lacking in some areas, especially DB, for some time. __________________ "I love signature blocks on the Internet. I get to put whatever the hell I want in quotes, pick a pretend author, and bang, it's like he really said it." George Washington
Posts: 43,125

11-09-2011, 10:22 PM	#58
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $790478	*Patriot Years* -Pioli and Belichick settled on Stephen Jackson before Vince Wilfork fell to them -Huge scouting rift between scouts and Belichick on the Maroney and Chad Jackson picks. Belichick wanted the players and scouts/Pioli didn’t. Led to the unravelling of things. -Belichick on the Patriots system in the draft “The first round you want guys with the fewest questions. The second round you find a lot of players with first round talent but not first round performance or production. The third round, you see guys who are maybe better football players than a lot of guys in the second, but dont have the measurements. The highest bust factor is in the second. *Pioli Interview/First Year* -Hunt thought just getting Pioli to interview was good. When he accepted, Hunt was ecstatic. -Pioli to Hunt during interview on all organizations but later it said how the Chiefs personified this: “There’s this living, breathing dysfunction with football organizations and it pits lifetime employees vs. temporary employees. It’s insane. You need the help of all these people to do the job well. It’s not just the players. It’s the equipment people, the grounds crew, community relations, marketing...” -Came here because of his love for Lamar Hunt and because he feels like it would be the ultimate challenge to win a championship here. -Said the first week in the office he saw this as copies were printed out in all color for no reason costing the organization minimum $10,000 per year for no reason. -Also saw it when scouts were messing around and surfing the internet during tape review. -As soon as he got in, he tried to get Gonzalez to stay by selling him on a rebuild but Tony balked and wanted out. -Book vaguely blames the 3 months of prep time as the reason for the first year draft not panning out Pioli Offseason 2011 -After last year “We’re just not good enough. At the end of the year, when we couldn’t sneak up on teams and we played good teams, we felt it. What do we need? There aren’t many positions we can look at and say we don’t need help there. We’ve got holes today, but we also have holes a year from now. I’ve seen a great roster. We are so far away from a great roster. So far away. You know we couldn’t get anyone open to catch a pass in the play-offs.” -In Mobile for Senior Bowl, Chiefs scout Jim Nagy wanted two guys Rodney Hudson and Ricky Stanzi. -Nagy on Hudson- “This guy is gonna be a good pro. Really impressive guy. He was essentially an offensive line coach on the field” -Nagy on Stanzi- “If I could pick a quarterback who we will all look back at in 5 years and say ‘Can you believe he lasted that long,’ it would be Stanzi. Most improved player I saw all year. He was watching tape of Senior Bowl practice on his own. -Haley is a huge Zorn fan and considers Zorn to be a Quarterback guru, which admittedly he is not. -Chiefs beat out the Titans and Jags for Zorn. -Each scout report asks six questions in the Chiefs scouting system What will this player’s role be as a Chief? Will the role change from year one to year two? How many downs can he be expected to play? Which current player on the roster will he beat out? What’s his value on special teams? Does he have positional versatility? -On how the scouts see Weigman: They rave about his durability, toughness and willingness to compete, but all agree that his starting days are over. -Pioli high on Pouncey and Jason Kelce, who reminds him of Dan Koppen and Olin Kruetz. Kelce sounds like a perfect Chief “throwback, mean, nasty, agressive” -Scouts on Ingram: “For the Chiefs, he is a younger, more athletic version of Thomas Jones. He’s not as fast as Jamaal but is a more complete back that can stay healthy on the field for three downs. See him as a replacement for Jones and a compliment to Charles.” However, Chiefs brass knew they were not spending a first rounder on Running Back. -Final Question to all first rounders, “Is he a guy who can help us win championships or a guy who will be the REASON we could win championships.” *The Draft* -One of the top 3 players on the Chiefs board was Aldon Smith. -Pioli was willing to trade up 6 spots from 21 to 15 to take Mike Pouncey but could not agree on a deal. They viewed him as “day one starter int he league, with smarts, toughness, and the type of talent to transform the entire line.” -Chiefs felt good at 21 because they saw several players that they would take. Deal from Cleveland was “too good to ignore”. -Haley “delighted” at the Baldwin pick. Chiefs are “thrilled” to get him because Haley gets the most out of wide receivers. Haley saw the same traits in Baldwin that he saw and brought out in Fitzgerald, Owens, and Keyshawn. Specifically picked him because of how the Ravens took Bowe out of the game. -Falcons rated Wisnewski as a “fourth or fifth rounder” -Rams called the Chiefs and offered 112 in the fourth for our 118 in the fourth and 223. Pioli turned it down. 112 was Greg Salas and 118 was Jalil Brown. Haley excited about Brown. Pioli, “He’s got a chance to be a good player.” -Chiefs looking to deal up to get ahead of Buffalo at 133 for Stanzi. Calls the Ravens and offers our fifth (135) and one of the two 7ths we have next year. Ozzie Newsome calls back and wants next years 5th. Pioli says no. Pioli thinks he has a deal with Houston for 127, so much so that he called our guy in New York and wrote down Stanzi’s name, but the Texans pick instead. Colts call and offer next years 4th for our 5th this year and Pioli says no. Stanzi is approaching. Dallas calls and want to give up 143 and 175 for 135. Pioli says no again sensing Stanzi. Buffalo picks Johnny White at 133 and we get Stanzi. -Chiefs picked Gabe Miller off his individual workout, which was so good scouts talked about it around the office. -Hunt says to Houston “I’m excited to see you play.” Houston says back, “And I am going to make sure I give you a reason to notice me on the field. I’m excited to play.” -Pioli has his eye on Kelce at 199. Pioli is stunned when Philadelphia picks him. -New target at 199: Powe. Concerns- Health and Weight. Scouts were fine on his intelligence and Pioli was livid when it was even brought up because he was dealing with Attention Deficit Disorder and was a determined student who got respect in the classroom. Haley tells him to keep in shape. -Everyone thought the last day of this year’s draft was very good. __________________ Chiefs game films
Posts: 297,469

11-09-2011, 10:27 PM	#60
O.city In Search of a Life Join Date: Jul 2009 Casino cash: $-735936	It's amazing to me that we have learned more today, from this book, than 3 years of KC reporters.
Posts: 84,242