Have NFL defenses fully adjusted to the RPO?

[rabblerouser]

Elements of this discussion are popping up in other threads, so let's discuss it in its own thread?

My opinion :

NFL defenses have caught up with the RPO.

Time for Patrick to really hone his pre-snap reads and start actually going through progressions based on those reads as opposed to reading the safety to determine man or zone and then doing everything else based on what the defense presents once the ball is snapped.

They know what we're doing and have adjusted.

Will Reid toss Bieniemy and go back to his WCO roots and press Mahomes to be even greater?

Or are we looking at another McCarthy-Rogers situation?

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

My opinion they need to simply open up the offense and go back to what they were doing before last season and stop trying to dink and dunk the ball down the field. My $.02.

With their current personnel and the way defenses are playing them, I'm not sure they can go back to what they were doing before. The Colts played a ton of cover 3 and 4, not cover 2. In essence, they were doubling down on keeping everything in front of them.

FWIW, they should try to do something wholly new, IMO. Stop trying to replicate what they did in the past. Tyreek isn't here. OBJ and Wylie aren't good enough to hold up. And we have no running game to speak of. It's time to evolve.

[Red Dawg]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

We need to keep in mind that 80% of the Wr’s are new I’ve heard it said it takes a year and a half to fully learn Andy’s system. Plus getting in sync with Pat

Then that sucks. Brady did it in one year and so did Stafford. What it really means it's an offense that relies on tricking the defense more than a players talent level to beat his man. So guys need time to learn where to go and not just be better route runners.

[OKchiefs]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

With their current personnel and the way defenses are playing them, I'm not sure they can go back to what they were doing before. The Colts played a ton of cover 3 and 4, not cover 2. In essence, they were doubling down on keeping everything in front of them.

FWIW, they should try to do something wholly new, IMO. Stop trying to replicate what they did in the past. Tyreek isn't here. OBJ and Wylie aren't good enough to hold up. And we have no running game to speak of. It's time to evolve.

True, but probably should have thought about that before the season when they had time to put more large scale changes in place. Instead they seem to have been complacent and largely stayed with almost the exact same offense despite not having Hill, even after seeing the same offense struggle even with Hill.

[ToxSocks]

Originally Posted by Red Dawg

What it really means it's an offense that relies on tricking the defense more than a players talent level to beat his man.

That's not what it means at all.

[ToxSocks]

Originally Posted by OKchiefs

True, but probably should have thought about that before the season when they had time to put more large scale changes in place. Instead they seem to have been complacent and largely stayed with almost the exact same offense despite not having Hill, even after seeing the same offense struggle even with Hill.

Except that they've run a shit ton more 21 and 22 personel than they have in the past.

Two and three TE sets and multiple backs is this season's "new wrinkle".

The passing concepts are the same, but why would THAT change?

[OKchiefs]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

We need to keep in mind that 80% of the Wr’s are new I’ve heard it said it takes a year and a half to fully learn Andy’s system. Plus getting in sync with Pat

Well most of the wide receivers are gone next year requiring another complete rebuild of the group, so we're going to go through the same song and dance yet again.

If an offense is so complicated that it takes forever for players to learn it and it still isn't as effective as it once was, maybe it's time to get with the times and rely more on allowing young players with talent to use said talent to get open rather than always trying to scheme everyone open.

[OKchiefs]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Except that they've run a shit ton more 21 and 22 personel than they have in the past.

Two and three TE sets and multiple backs is this season's "new wrinkle".

The passing concepts are the same, but why would THAT change?

Because the talent level has changed, and defenses have caught up with what KC is doing. The offense is stale. They were cutting edge 2-3 years ago, now they're not.

[ToxSocks]

Originally Posted by OKchiefs

Because the talent level has changed, and defenses have caught up with what KC is doing. The offense is stale. They were cutting edge 2-3 years ago, now they're not.

You're not going to change your concepts every year. Nobody does that. You're not going to have your QB learn a whole new system. That's silly.

[Demonpenz]

****ing run CEH

[penguinz]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

I love how rando poster on CP knows how Mahomes is running the offense and how to fix it

Smarter than Andy Reid!

This comment applies to another part of this site as well. Everyone thinks they know exactly what is going on but it is all just guessing.

[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by penguinz

I feel like this is happening. Colts game looked like Andy believed the team talent would make up for bad calls and it was near a guaranteed win so he let EB call the game. Would also help tie in with how Mahomes went after EB at half.

I mean, if this is accurate, at what point does it become a "failed experiment."

[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

One of the talking heads (I think maybe Chris Simms) said that the Chiefs aren't using motion effectively. It's basically just a way for them to determine man vs. zone and they're just kind of doing it robotically.

I used to do that when I played Madden as a teenager.

It's because the RPO doesn't need Mahomes to read the defenses, and the coaches can just, kinda half-ass it, really TBH.

RPO is based off ONE pre-snap read - is it man or zone? Where is the safety? Those are literally the only pre-snap reads, everything else pre-snap is changing protections. So, Mahomes makes ALL his real decisions based off what the defense does and responds to that, AFTER the ball is snapped. Same with the receivers; they go off a route tree which is, again, reactionary and based off what the defense presents.

It runs in diametrical opposition to what Andy's background is, which is WCO, go an take that shit 5 yards at a time/death by 1000 paper cuts/control the clock and the game/high percentage passes that string 1st downs together and burn the ****ing clock out.

Watch those slants the 49ers ran, or we ran when Montana was here - snap from center, 3 step drop, ball out when the plant foot hits end of the drop like clockwork. Everytime. And it was impossible to defend when the timing was down cold. Montana and Rice and then later Young and Rice ran it to stone cold perfection, because you knew it was coming but there was nothing you could do about it, except hope to maybe jam Rice off the line (good luck). I realize we don't have Jerry Rice...

The reason the ball came out so quick was Montana would read the defense pre-snap and send people in motion TO GET THE MATCHUPS he wanted. To ATTACK the defense.

The RPO seems stuck because IT IS, the glitch is in the time it takes to survey and react to the defense post-snap.

Promise. That's why defenses are like "just stand back and don't let them beat you deep. If they don't uncork a big one, they might not score."

they don't ATTACK defenses with any real specific plan other than "hopefully Patrick will make something happen". And it really is starting to show.

[RunKC]

Originally Posted by OKchiefs

True, but probably should have thought about that before the season when they had time to put more large scale changes in place. Instead they seem to have been complacent and largely stayed with almost the exact same offense despite not having Hill, even after seeing the same offense struggle even with Hill.

Andy has always had this problem. We saw it in the SB loss.

He’s playing the way he wants. Changes be damned. Your tackles are getting whipped and you won’t go into different mode.

Screens, running the ball more, play action. Nope just lining up in 11 personnel and saying “**** it” most of the time.

[Shag]

Interestingly, looking at this: https://www.pro-football-reference.c...g_advanced.htm, they only have Mahomes at 9 RPO snaps on the season. I haven't paid close enough attention to know if this is accurate, but afaik, they're generally considered a good resource for NFL stats.

[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

That's the thing about the RPO. It's a call AFTER the snap. The defense is never in a position to fully stop the RPO, that's the whole point of having post-snap option reads. The problem is that the reads have to be RIGHT. You can't hand off the ball right into penetration and you shouldn't pull it back and try to throw it when there's 8 guys in coverage.

That's why I keep saying that some of the blame has to be on Mahomes. They give him a ton of leeway with the RPO and he doesn't always execute it correctly. In fact, when we're struggling or behind and he starts pressing, he executes it poorly many times.