Rebel flag is it racist? - Page 5

Duck Dog · 10-05-2000, 04:40 PM

Am just curious as to everyone's thoughts

sun · 10-06-2000, 11:31 AM

It depends on what you think is equal.

Example

2 job openings
10 applicants.....9 white, 1 black
does the black automatically get one of the positions?

Is that equality?

How about a couple of years ago when minorities blocked I-70 to protest that minority owned contracting companies weren't getting enough state contracting jobs. Do you agree with that?

Equality

I didn't qualify for the United Negro College fund. Why not? Was it because I was white?

Fort Chief · 10-06-2000, 11:40 AM

The flag itself is not racist. As others have pointed out, it is an inanimate object.

But while the flag itself is not racist, it is a [b]symbol[/b] of racism.

TEX · 10-06-2000, 11:43 AM

47mack-

While I am not familiar with the specific contracting issues, etc. that you are referring to, I can elaborate on my stance on this issue. No, I do not believe in quotas, I do however think that race can be a legitimate factor in making employment decisions ALL OTHER FACTORS BEING RELATIVELY EQUAL.

I am not opposed to minority groups taking strides to improve their condition in America. Time has taught us that if they don't speak up for themselves, it is unlikely that anyone else will.

Gaz-

We are in agreement that the idea of the "noble crusade" is a myth. However it would seem that many of the issues that people claim are the "actual" causes of the civil war: states rights, etc... really reflect back to one major issue, the right to own slaves.

It is important to consider this conflict in another light.. did the Union have the right to step in and mandate that the South should live their lives a certain way. That is the real issue here, and it one that I am still going back and forth about in my own mind.

Mark-
later folks, gotta run to stat class [img]http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/frown.gif[/img]

sun · 10-06-2000, 11:45 AM

Revolver

I have enjoyed conversing with you and respect your opinions. I gotta run now. I'll check back later for more 47mack bashing.

------------------
TWB
Less Government in 2000

10-06-2000, 11:46 AM

Let it be pointed out that Lincoln considered never freeing the slaves. Slavery was not a central issue in the fighting of the Civil War. It was an afterthought, a sidenote in history. The conflict between the states boiled down to economic factors, between a prosperous industrial nation, and an agricultural society who couldn't keep up.

Also, the NAACP stand for the National Association for the [b]Advancement[/b] of Colored People. How does that translate into equality? If it results in equality, so be it, but I think they stand for the rights of African-Americans [b]above[/b] all others.

------------------
Parker
[b]ChiefsPlanet Administrator[/b]
[i]Jimmy Raye for President...anything to get him out of Kansas City[/i]
[i]More Moreau</I>

sun · 10-06-2000, 11:47 AM

Maybe they weren't speaking up for themselves in the past, but they are overstepping their boundries now, IMO.

LATER

------------------
TWB
Less Government in 2000

DoktorSmith · 10-06-2000, 11:48 AM

As I said earlier, I am an amatuer Civil War Historian....

While slavery was an issue for sure, it was not the reason for the War...some one said it earlier...it was about states rights...

Lincloln was determined not to let the Union split apart...he didn't really care if that meant keeping slavery or not...as long as the Union was united....

Lincoln was a genius at motivation...when it appeared that the North was losing interest in the War and consequently not fighting as hard to preserve the Union...he came up with the Emancipation Proclamation...what a great motivational tool...the Northern soldiers now had a tangible thing to fight for...again, Northern soldiers couldn't care less about "****** "..for the most part they had about as much respect for them as did the southern slave owners...but now they had a cause and ultimately that proved to be the difference.....

Gaz, are all engineers so well versed in the history of the Civil War?

History 101
------------------
joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 10-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 10-06-2000).]

10-06-2000, 11:51 AM

Gaz and Joe,

Yes, you are right. The flag in and off itself is not racist. The "Stars and Bars" is not as well recognized and therefore not as high-profile as the battle flag. However, both are symbols of a time in American history which we should not be proud of. As an American of Jewish-German decent, it pains me to see you make mention fo the Swaztika in the same light. The symbol itself is not racist, however, universally it is a well known symbol of hatred and genocide.

People should have the common sense and decency to fly the ****ing American flag instead of glorifying symbols that represent ideas that are so blatantly anti-American.

------------------
Parker
[b]ChiefsPlanet Administrator[/b]
[i]Jimmy Raye for President...anything to get him out of Kansas City[/i]
[i]More Moreau</I>

mcnall · 10-06-2000, 11:53 AM

I have always seen the argument of States Rights or Slavery being the catalyst for the Civil War as an argument of semantics. Yes of course the issue was States rights but the right in question was one of slavery. It was a #’s game. The North and South at one time had Balance. The fear of imbalance brought up the most ridiculous legislation ever passed namely the 3/5 compromise. My American history teacher went to great lengths to stress that the war was about States Rights and not Slavery, and if I recall correctly Lincoln never vowed to free the slaves prior to the war. In fact the Emancipation Proclamation could easily be viewed as an attempt to sir up a slave revolt to hinder the South’s war effort So yes it was about States Rights but the Slavery issue was so deeply intertwined that it can't left out of the equation.

10-06-2000, 11:54 AM

Joe,

Good take. Very well said. And accurate too.

I have a graduate degree in history, but unfortunately my specialty was in 19th century German philosophers. I wonder how Karl Marx felt about slavery and the Civil War? [img]http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

------------------
Parker
[b]ChiefsPlanet Administrator[/b]
[i]Jimmy Raye for President...anything to get him out of Kansas City[/i]
[i]More Moreau</I>

Fort Chief · 10-06-2000, 11:56 AM

OK History buffs...

If the Civil War was not fought because of slavery, but "state's rights", what other state's rights did the Confederacy fight for other than the right to [b]own[/b] slaves?

10-06-2000, 11:58 AM

The right to pull out of the union for one.

DoktorSmith · 10-06-2000, 12:00 PM

Htis, Yet, at first even the Nazi flag is nothing more than a symbol of a political party...

And as for the same reasons I display a Confederate Battle Flag, I would display a Nazi flag...not because I'm an aryan prick, but because I find it a neat design and I am a collector of military memorabilia.

I am of Italian descent. Italy was on the Nazis side at first but by war's end teh Italians hated the Nazis as much as anyone...

When I was a kid, I drew a picture of a Nazi flag inside my garage...my grandad, coming from Italy in the 20s...slapped my silly...I couldn't understand why...I thought it was a cool looking flag...I had no idea what it symbolized....the innocence of a child...unfortunately...the adults around too many children steal that innocence and turn it to hate...my grandpa taught me what it meant...something not to display nor be proud of....

------------------
joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

Fort Chief · 10-06-2000, 12:01 PM

But why did they want to pull out of the Union?

redshirt32 · 10-06-2000, 12:01 PM

Gaz:

First, thank you for so eloquently stating what i was trying so hard to type without appearing annoying.

"My problem is that the Civil War has been re-cast as a noble crusade against slavery, with the upstanding North battling the evil South."

Like many I was brought up in the Midwest school systems teaching the Northern version of the Civil War. After moving here to South Carolina a few years back my passion for History was rekindled and I found a new zeal to broaden my horizon. It only takes a visit to Fort Sumter and Charleston, SC for one to get a new view of the "War of Northern Agression". The atrocities that were committed on the people of the South were just as great as those that have been portrayed as being committed by the Confederacy. If anyone thinks that all the Union Army did was come in and "liberate" slaves(in some cases they were taken back North to be used as household slaves there)then furthering reading needs to be done.

con't<BR>

10-06-2000, 11:31 AM	#61
sun Tacklen' Fuel Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Farmington, Mo. Casino cash: $10004900	It depends on what you think is equal. Example 2 job openings 10 applicants.....9 white, 1 black does the black automatically get one of the positions? Is that equality? How about a couple of years ago when minorities blocked I-70 to protest that minority owned contracting companies weren't getting enough state contracting jobs. Do you agree with that? Equality I didn't qualify for the United Negro College fund. Why not? Was it because I was white?
Posts: 388

10-06-2000, 11:40 AM	#62
Fort Chief Starter Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Texas, USA Casino cash: $10004900	The flag itself is not racist. As others have pointed out, it is an inanimate object. But while the flag itself is not racist, it is a [b]symbol[/b] of racism.
Posts: 643

10-06-2000, 11:43 AM	#63
TEX Out Gunning CP's Fandom Police Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Laguna Beach, CA Casino cash: $1843127	47mack- While I am not familiar with the specific contracting issues, etc. that you are referring to, I can elaborate on my stance on this issue. No, I do not believe in quotas, I do however think that race can be a legitimate factor in making employment decisions ALL OTHER FACTORS BEING RELATIVELY EQUAL. I am not opposed to minority groups taking strides to improve their condition in America. Time has taught us that if they don't speak up for themselves, it is unlikely that anyone else will. Gaz- We are in agreement that the idea of the "noble crusade" is a myth. However it would seem that many of the issues that people claim are the "actual" causes of the civil war: states rights, etc... really reflect back to one major issue, the right to own slaves. It is important to consider this conflict in another light.. did the Union have the right to step in and mandate that the South should live their lives a certain way. That is the real issue here, and it one that I am still going back and forth about in my own mind. Mark- later folks, gotta run to stat class [img]http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/frown.gif[/img]
Posts: 34,796

10-06-2000, 11:45 AM	#64
sun Tacklen' Fuel Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Farmington, Mo. Casino cash: $10004900	Revolver I have enjoyed conversing with you and respect your opinions. I gotta run now. I'll check back later for more 47mack bashing. ------------------ TWB Less Government in 2000
Posts: 388

10-06-2000, 11:46 AM	#65
AustinChief Guest Casino cash: $	Let it be pointed out that Lincoln considered never freeing the slaves. Slavery was not a central issue in the fighting of the Civil War. It was an afterthought, a sidenote in history. The conflict between the states boiled down to economic factors, between a prosperous industrial nation, and an agricultural society who couldn't keep up. Also, the NAACP stand for the National Association for the [b]Advancement[/b] of Colored People. How does that translate into equality? If it results in equality, so be it, but I think they stand for the rights of African-Americans [b]above[/b] all others. ------------------ Parker [b]ChiefsPlanet Administrator[/b] [i]Jimmy Raye for President...anything to get him out of Kansas City[/i] [i]More Moreau</I>
Posts: n/a

10-05-2000, 04:40 PM
Duck Dog Reap the whirlwind Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Olathe Casino cash: $10004900	Am just curious as to everyone's thoughts
Posts: 8,902

10-06-2000, 11:47 AM	#66
sun Tacklen' Fuel Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Farmington, Mo. Casino cash: $10004900	Maybe they weren't speaking up for themselves in the past, but they are overstepping their boundries now, IMO. LATER ------------------ TWB Less Government in 2000
Posts: 388

10-06-2000, 11:48 AM	#67
DoktorSmith Veteran Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: KCMO Casino cash: $10004900	As I said earlier, I am an amatuer Civil War Historian.... While slavery was an issue for sure, it was not the reason for the War...some one said it earlier...it was about states rights... Lincloln was determined not to let the Union split apart...he didn't really care if that meant keeping slavery or not...as long as the Union was united.... Lincoln was a genius at motivation...when it appeared that the North was losing interest in the War and consequently not fighting as hard to preserve the Union...he came up with the Emancipation Proclamation...what a great motivational tool...the Northern soldiers now had a tangible thing to fight for...again, Northern soldiers couldn't care less about "****** "..for the most part they had about as much respect for them as did the southern slave owners...but now they had a cause and ultimately that proved to be the difference..... Gaz, are all engineers so well versed in the history of the Civil War? History 101 ------------------ joe "The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein." -Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst [This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 10-06-2000).] [This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 10-06-2000).]
Posts: 1,705

10-06-2000, 11:51 AM	#68
AustinChief Guest Casino cash: $	Gaz and Joe, Yes, you are right. The flag in and off itself is not racist. The "Stars and Bars" is not as well recognized and therefore not as high-profile as the battle flag. However, both are symbols of a time in American history which we should not be proud of. As an American of Jewish-German decent, it pains me to see you make mention fo the Swaztika in the same light. The symbol itself is not racist, however, universally it is a well known symbol of hatred and genocide. People should have the common sense and decency to fly the ****ing American flag instead of glorifying symbols that represent ideas that are so blatantly anti-American. ------------------ Parker [b]ChiefsPlanet Administrator[/b] [i]Jimmy Raye for President...anything to get him out of Kansas City[/i] [i]More Moreau</I>
Posts: n/a

10-06-2000, 11:53 AM	#69
mcnall Starter Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Fairfax VT Casino cash: $10004900	I have always seen the argument of States Rights or Slavery being the catalyst for the Civil War as an argument of semantics. Yes of course the issue was States rights but the right in question was one of slavery. It was a #’s game. The North and South at one time had Balance. The fear of imbalance brought up the most ridiculous legislation ever passed namely the 3/5 compromise. My American history teacher went to great lengths to stress that the war was about States Rights and not Slavery, and if I recall correctly Lincoln never vowed to free the slaves prior to the war. In fact the Emancipation Proclamation could easily be viewed as an attempt to sir up a slave revolt to hinder the South’s war effort So yes it was about States Rights but the Slavery issue was so deeply intertwined that it can't left out of the equation.
Posts: 153

10-06-2000, 11:54 AM	#70
AustinChief Guest Casino cash: $	Joe, Good take. Very well said. And accurate too. I have a graduate degree in history, but unfortunately my specialty was in 19th century German philosophers. I wonder how Karl Marx felt about slavery and the Civil War? [img]http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] ------------------ Parker [b]ChiefsPlanet Administrator[/b] [i]Jimmy Raye for President...anything to get him out of Kansas City[/i] [i]More Moreau</I>
Posts: n/a

10-06-2000, 11:56 AM	#71
Fort Chief Starter Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Texas, USA Casino cash: $10004900	OK History buffs... If the Civil War was not fought because of slavery, but "state's rights", what other state's rights did the Confederacy fight for other than the right to [b]own[/b] slaves?
Posts: 643

10-06-2000, 11:58 AM	#72
Lurker Brett Guest Casino cash: $	The right to pull out of the union for one.
Posts: n/a

10-06-2000, 12:00 PM	#73
DoktorSmith Veteran Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: KCMO Casino cash: $10004900	Htis, Yet, at first even the Nazi flag is nothing more than a symbol of a political party... And as for the same reasons I display a Confederate Battle Flag, I would display a Nazi flag...not because I'm an aryan prick, but because I find it a neat design and I am a collector of military memorabilia. I am of Italian descent. Italy was on the Nazis side at first but by war's end teh Italians hated the Nazis as much as anyone... When I was a kid, I drew a picture of a Nazi flag inside my garage...my grandad, coming from Italy in the 20s...slapped my silly...I couldn't understand why...I thought it was a cool looking flag...I had no idea what it symbolized....the innocence of a child...unfortunately...the adults around too many children steal that innocence and turn it to hate...my grandpa taught me what it meant...something not to display nor be proud of.... ------------------ joe "The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein." -Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst
Posts: 1,705

10-06-2000, 12:01 PM	#74
Fort Chief Starter Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Texas, USA Casino cash: $10004900	But why did they want to pull out of the Union?
Posts: 643

10-06-2000, 12:01 PM	#75
redshirt32 Fire Controlman Vet Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: By the Sea Casino cash: $5734936	Gaz: First, thank you for so eloquently stating what i was trying so hard to type without appearing annoying. "My problem is that the Civil War has been re-cast as a noble crusade against slavery, with the upstanding North battling the evil South." Like many I was brought up in the Midwest school systems teaching the Northern version of the Civil War. After moving here to South Carolina a few years back my passion for History was rekindled and I found a new zeal to broaden my horizon. It only takes a visit to Fort Sumter and Charleston, SC for one to get a new view of the "War of Northern Agression". The atrocities that were committed on the people of the South were just as great as those that have been portrayed as being committed by the Confederacy. If anyone thinks that all the Union Army did was come in and "liberate" slaves(in some cases they were taken back North to be used as household slaves there)then furthering reading needs to be done. con't<BR>
Posts: 5,106