HOF & 3 Coaches

[Mile High Mania]

Ok, so during some down time the last week I was watching one of the many "Top 10" segments on NFLN. In one of them, they were talking about coaches... the reference was made about Levy being in the HOF and compared him to guys like Reeves and Marty. I would think that both of them are locks for the HOF, so I was looking at their numbers.

Is it just a matter of time for these two? What are your thoughts? I guess my question is why was Marv such a sure fire HOF'er and Dan Reeves with more wins and a nearly identical playoff record ... is waiting longer?

Also, while the playoff numbers kill Marty... shouldn't he be considered?

Marv Levy
Last season was 1997 - inducted in 2001

17 years as a HC / 143 wins and 112 losses
11-8 playoff record
0-4 SB record (1 team)
10 seasons at or above .500

Dan Reeves
Last season was 2003 -

23 years as a HC / 190 wins and 165 losses and 2 ties
11-9 playoff record
0-4 SB record (2 teams)
14 seasons at or above .500

Marty Schottenheimer
Last season was 2006 -

21 years as a HC / 200 wins and 126 losses and 1 tie
5-13 playoff record
0 SB
18 seasons at or above .500

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Mile High Mania

I agree and on that note...

Michael Irvin - 12 seasons / HOF Inductee
147 Games
750 receptions
11,904 yards
65 TDs
3 Rings
5 Pro Bowls
7 - 1,000+ yd seasons

Rod Smith - 12 seasons
158 Games
849 receptions
11,389 yards
68 TDs
2 Rings
3 Pro Bowls
8 - 1,000+ yd seasons

Is Rod not likely to get in? I would've thought so, but maybe he'll suffer from stat inflation issues.

I remember a discussion of a very good WR who had been around alot of years -- I think he retired within the last 2-3 years after palying for the Jaguars or Tampa the last couple of years. His stats were comparable to several HOFers, but I never thought of him as a HOF, just a very good player.

Can't think of his name, but issues like that are going to be a problem for all players, as stats continually increase.

[Mile High Mania]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Is Rod not likely to get in? I would've thought so, but maybe he'll suffer from stat inflation issues.

I remember a discussion of a very good WR who had been around alot of years -- I think he retired within the last 2-3 years after palying for the Jaguars or Tampa the last couple of years. His stats were comparable to several HOFers, but I never thought of him as a HOF, just a very good player.

Can't think of his name, but issues like that are going to be a problem for all players, as stats continually increase.

Jimmy Smith... another great example.

And, I would think Rod qualifies... but I've heard some that say no.

[blaise]

Re Eddie George: Eddie George was a good back, but he wasn't a HOFer, I don't think. There was a time when 10,000 yards was considered a sort of marker for a HOF back, but I don't think that's the case anymore. There's guys with 10,000 yards that aren't getting in, like Ricky Watters and Jamal Lewis and (I hope not) Tiki Barber. Fred Taylor. Clinton Portis will go over 10,000 yards. I just don't see George as a HOFer. It helps to be a media darling like Bettis, but I don't think George has enough of that to get in. But like someone else said, it depends on the class.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Mile High Mania

I think you're really going out of your way to dismiss the level of talent on the NE teams.

Listen, I love our guys. I think we've consistently had an above-average talent roster, from 1-53, from years 2003-current. I'm not sure that our 2001 roster was much above average, especially when you consider how Light and Seymour were just rookies.

But you tell me -- because this debate rages on Pats boards -- who are the Patriots HOFers during the Belichick era, and especially how many from the three SB winning years?

1. Brady. I'll go out on a limb and say "yes".

2. Seymour? Maybe. 6 Pro Bowls, but injuries have derailed him. He's nearly 30 now, and has 3-5 years to cement his legacy, or not.

3. Vinatieri? Maybe. One kicker in the HOF. Other than a few memorable kicks in key situations, he'd have NO shot whatsoever.

4. Bruschi/Brown/Law/Milloy/Harrison/Light/Vrabel/McGinest -- all in the Hall of Very Good

5. Corey Dillon -- HOF level when he wanted to be, and certainly awesome in 2004, but not a HOFer.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Mile High Mania

Jimmy Smith... another great example.

And, I would think Rod qualifies... but I've heard some that say no.

That's it. Couldn't think of his damn name.

[DaKCMan AP]

I wouldn't put Rod Smith in before Jerry Rice, Cris Carter, Tim Brown, Andre Reed or Jimmy Smith.

[blaise]

Originally Posted by DaKCMan AP

I wouldn't put Rod Smith in before Jerry Rice, Cris Carter, Tim Brown, Andre Reed or Jimmy Smith.

No me neither.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Mile High Mania

Rod Smith - 12 seasons
158 Games
849 receptions
11,389 yards
68 TDs
2 Rings
3 Pro Bowls
8 - 1,000+ yd seasons

Looks like Smith has your boy beat.

12 seasons
178 games
862 receptions
12,287 yards
67 TDs
No rings
5 Pro Bowls
9 1,000+ yard seasons

Almost identical, right? Welll....but how many years did Rod Smith have a top 5 (at least) all time QB throwing the ball all over the field, and a world class TE operating underneath, and a great running back behind the great QB?

For those reasons, I'd tend to give a slight nod to Smith. To be honest, though, given how close it is, they're either both in, or neither is.

[Baby Lee]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Reviewed Schottenheimer's record. It's much more of what I expect to see from a HOF coach (compare to Reeves).

Takes a Browns team and improves it. Takes a Chiefs team and improves it. Ignore one aberrant year with that idiot Snyder in Washington. Takes a Chargers team and improves it.

61% win percentage.

The only knock, obviously, is no SB appearances/wins.

Even that aberrant year with Snyder, they became the first team to win 5 consecutive after losing their first five.

[Demonpenz]

Marty was like the guy who would get A's in all his course work and an F on the test and get a C in the class. That is not hall of fame worthy

[Mile High Mania]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Looks like Smith has your boy beat.

12 seasons
178 games
862 receptions
12,287 yards
67 TDs
No rings
5 Pro Bowls
9 1,000+ yard seasons

Almost identical, right? Welll....but how many years did Rod Smith have a top 5 (at least) all time QB throwing the ball all over the field, and a world class TE operating underneath, and a great running back behind the great QB?

For those reasons, I'd tend to give a slight nod to Smith. To be honest, though, given how close it is, they're either both in, or neither is.

You can use that argument though for so many players and people do to either state the case as to why someone should be in or out of the HOF.

Yes - Rod had Elway for the majority of his years with Sharpe, Ed and Davis for several of them. But, Smith was on some good teams and while Brunell is not Elway, he was very productive in that system. Smith also had a solid RB (Taylor) supporting him and there was McCardell playing #2...

It's not like Jimmy Smith was playing with Peter Tom Willis at QB and Brandon Jackson at RB. They're very similar in production while playing on good offenses.

[Mile High Mania]

Originally Posted by blaise

Re Eddie George: Eddie George was a good back, but he wasn't a HOFer, I don't think. There was a time when 10,000 yards was considered a sort of marker for a HOF back, but I don't think that's the case anymore. There's guys with 10,000 yards that aren't getting in, like Ricky Watters and Jamal Lewis and (I hope not) Tiki Barber. Fred Taylor. Clinton Portis will go over 10,000 yards. I just don't see George as a HOFer. It helps to be a media darling like Bettis, but I don't think George has enough of that to get in. But like someone else said, it depends on the class.

Many RBs over the last decade fall into the same group and most of them are not Emmit Smith and Barry Sanders type of players - those are legit HOF RBs.

George, Watters, Bettis, Lewis, Barber, Portis, Taylor... they're all great RBs, but neither of them really stands out much from the other. So, I think all or none get in... and the same goes with WRs.

I think Irvin was a great WR, but I don't know that he's any more qualified than Rod Smith or even Jimmy Smith for the HOF. Many will say "he has rings", so does Rod... and each of them was considered one of the best of his era for a number of years.

[CoMoChief]

Originally Posted by Mile High Mania

True... Reeves took two teams (one with a journeyman QB) to the SB. There's just not that much difference between the two to me and would put Reeves a tick higher than Levy.

Yeah but Levy had some of the best teams ever. Those Bills team were great.

[blaise]

Originally Posted by CoMoChief

Yeah but Levy had some of the best teams ever. Those Bills team were great.

They had a string of excellent drafts. Kelly, they found Reed at Kutztown State, Thurman Thomas, Bruce Smith, Cornelius Bennett and more. They went through a period where a ton of their draft picks were working out perfectly.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Mile High Mania

You can use that argument though for so many players and people do to either state the case as to why someone should be in or out of the HOF.

Yes - Rod had Elway for the majority of his years with Sharpe, Ed and Davis for several of them. But, Smith was on some good teams and while Brunell is not Elway, he was very productive in that system. Smith also had a solid RB (Taylor) supporting him and there was McCardell playing #2...

It's not like Jimmy Smith was playing with Peter Tom Willis at QB and Brandon Jackson at RB. They're very similar in production while playing on good offenses.

errr...Broncos offense was the best in the NFL some of those years. Heck, it won two SBs for you guys. Don't think Jax ever had that.

But yeah, it's so close it hardly matters. He's not the ARchie Manning of WRs or anything.

Again, both in or both out, is really the only "fair" result, IMHO. I'm thinking "out", myself, but as noted above I'm a very tough grader.