Chiefs At the Quarter Mark: Better or Worse? - Page 5

**OnTheWarpath15** · 05:47 PM

After the Haley hire, you couldn't throw a stick through this place without hitting someone that made the following comment:

"We'll be a better team based on coaching alone," or, "we'll win X amount of games due to coaching alone."

Yes, it's only been 4 games, and this is NOT a call for Haley's head - but is deserved criticism of the way he's prepared this team over the first 4 games of the regular season.

Also, IN NO WAY is the following an endorsement of Herman Edwards. What it is, however, is a giant red flag - this team - of which 60% has been handpicked by Pioli and Haley - is actually worse in almost all statistical categories when compared to the 2008 team after 4 games - which many here claimed were the darkest days of last season. We'll call it, B.S. - or, Before Spread.

Offensively (bolded number is 2009 totals):

1st downs: (63) (62)

3rd down conversions: (25/62 - 40%) (9/51 - 18%)

Total yards: (1145) (986)

Rushing yards: (554) (406)

Passing yards: (591) (580)

Sacks Allowed: (12) (13)

Penalties/Yardage: (10/109) 29/230

Scoring: (16.25 PPG) (16 PPG)

Not a single category in which we've improved over 2008, which happened to include going through 3 QB's - playing the 3rd stringer in 2 of the 4.

Defensively:

1st downs allowed: (74) (85)

3rd down conversions against: (25/54 - 46%) (25/58 - 43%)

Total yards allowed: (1517) (1516)

Rushing yards allowed: (706) (514)

Passing yards allowed: (811) (1002)

Sacks: (3) (5)

Points allowed: (24.25 PPG) (28 PPG)

Turnover margin: (+2) (Even)

Yea! 2 more sacks! And nice to see the 192 yard improvement from the rush defense, only to see 191 of it be given back up by the pass defense.

The 2008 team was apparently so bad that management felt the need to purge 30 players, yet is playing worse with a roster that is 60% their handpicked players?

What message are you trying to send, Todd? It seems like it changes on a weekly ****ing basis.

As someone who predicted a 3 win season, the losses aren't surprising me.

The way we are losing, after hearing the phrase, "we're going to be a big, strong, fast, smart, tough, disciplined football team" IS surprising me.

There is no improvement over the "Dark Ages" of last season in ANY of those areas. And there's no excuse for it, especially the lack of discipline. Make 'em run some more, Todd - it seems to be working...

Enough excuses - enough with the "messages" - enough petty bullshit sitting players - time to see some ****ing improvement. Not necessarily wins.

IMPROVEMENT.

**cdcox** · 10-05-2009, 03:31 PM

We are getting worse at a slower rate than we were before. Therefore, we are near the bottom and will be improving soon.

Seriously, the roster was so bad that I'm giving Pioli/Haley 2 full years of free ride. I also don't think they got the benefit of a full off season because of the lateness in which the staff was assembled (I blame Clark and his insistence to evaluate Herm Edwards for that). I won't try to determine if we are on the right track until regular season of 2011. My major gripe so far is Cassel over Sanchez.

**DaneMcCloud** · 10-05-2009, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rausch

I'd love to see a comparison between DV/Haley, year 1.

I'd argue both coaches came in with little to work with.

Not that I'm a fan of Haley. In fact I'd spank to the news he was canned...

2001 Chiefs:

Offense: #5 overall in points averaging 20 points per game (320 total)
#5 overall in yards per game (354 per game)

Defense: #23 overall in points at 21.5 (344 total allowed)
#23 overall in yards at 331 per game

**Rausch** · 10-05-2009, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirk digler

One thing to keep in mind about Pioli and that was in 2000 the Pats were 5-11 and for a portion of the season didn't even have a full 53 man roster because Pioli\Belichick didn't like anybody that they could bring in or who they had on their practice squad.

Then the following year they started out 0-2 and everybody was thinking Belichick was going to be fired.

The rest is history. Now I am not saying that is going to happen here but the first year is basically a bloodletting.

The same offensive line that got Bledsoe killed and everyone said was horrible Brady rode to a super bowl. Brady changed their whole team.

Those first two years under Brady the Pats scraped and clawed their way to victory. No huge blowouts or anything. Brady and co. just always found a way at the end...

**Rausch** · 10-05-2009, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

2001 Chiefs:

Offense: #5 overall in points averaging 20 points per game (320 total)
#5 overall in yards per game (354 per game)

Defense: #23 overall in points at 21.5 (344 total allowed)
#23 overall in yards at 331 per game

That was DV's first year? You sure?

I remember a lot of sacks, INT's, and Holmes didn't even really come on until about week 4 or so...

**dirk digler** · 10-05-2009, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rausch

The same offensive line that got Bledsoe killed and everyone said was horrible Brady rode to a super bowl. Brady changed their whole team.

Those first two years under Brady the Pats scraped and clawed their way to victory. No huge blowouts or anything. Brady and co. just always found a way at the end...

That is not true about their OL. You are correct about clawing their way to victories.

2000 Final OL

78 Bruce Armstrong T
72 Sale Isaia G
70 Adrian Klemm G/T ^R
62 Josh Rawlings T ^UR
77 Greg Robinson-Randall T ^R
67 Grey Ruegamer C/G
76 Grant Williams T
65 Damien Woody C

2001 Final OL

63 Joe Andruzzi G
77 Mike Compton G
74 Kenyatta Jones T/G ^R
72 Matt Light T ^R
61 Stephen Neal T/G
64 Greg Robinson-Randall T
67 Grey Ruegamer C/G
76 Grant Williams T
65 Damien Woody C

They replaced 3 out of their 5 starters in 01.

Just Passin' By · 10-05-2009, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rausch

That was DV's first year? You sure?

I remember a lot of sacks, INT's, and Holmes didn't even really come on until about week 4 or so...

They were 16th in scoring, not 5th as Dane posted:

Quote:

Scored 320 points (20.0/g), 16th of 31 in the NFL.
Allowed 344 points (21.5/g), 23rd.
Differential of -24 points (-1.5/g), 17th...
Takeaway/Giveaway Differential -7 (-0.4/g), 22nd.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...s/kan/2001.htm

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorysta...true&Submit=Go

keg in kc · 10-05-2009, 03:53 PM

They've played three teams that may contend for this year's superbowl, two of them on the road. That's not the September 2008 versions of New England, Oakland, Atlanta and Denver. Yeah, I'm shocked that they don't look worlds better.

As far as the 2001 comparison goes, that team was 1-3 at this point and had only shown the flashes of the offense to come in later years against the Redskins. Priest Holmes would have less than 250 yards rushing in four games, with 150 of that coming against Washington a week ago. And yesterday's game would have been highlighted by TrINT Green, as we knew him then, tossing four picks to Deltha O'Neal.

Ahh, the good ol' days.

Mr_Tomahawk · 10-05-2009, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg in kc

They've played three teams that may contend for this year's superbowl, two of them on the road. That's not the September 2008 versions of New England, Oakland, Atlanta and Denver. Yeah, I'm shocked that they don't look worlds better.

As far as the 2001 comparison goes, that team was 1-3 at this point and had only shown the flashes of the offense to come in later years against the Redskins. Priest Holmes would have less than 250 yards rushing in four games, with 150 of that coming against Washington a week ago. And yesterday's game would have been highlighted by TrINT Green, as we knew him then, tossing four picks to Deltha O'Neal.

Ahh, the good ol' days.

**Rausch** · 10-05-2009, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirk digler

That is not true about their OL. You are correct about clawing their way to victories.

2000 Final OL

78 Bruce Armstrong T
72 Sale Isaia G
70 Adrian Klemm G/T ^R
62 Josh Rawlings T ^UR
77 Greg Robinson-Randall T ^R
67 Grey Ruegamer C/G
76 Grant Williams T
65 Damien Woody C

2001 Final OL

63 Joe Andruzzi G
77 Mike Compton G
74 Kenyatta Jones T/G ^R
72 Matt Light T ^R
61 Stephen Neal T/G
64 Greg Robinson-Randall T
67 Grey Ruegamer C/G
76 Grant Williams T
65 Damien Woody C

They replaced 3 out of their 5 starters in 01.

Bledsoe got knocked out (after getting beat around) and Brady rode that team to a SB. IIRC Brady even missed a game (or most of a game) that Bledsoe had to fill in for during the run due to injury.

I'm just saying that Brady's first year that was no super front 5 he played behind but his play did chance the whole dynamic...

**DaneMcCloud** · 10-05-2009, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rausch

That was DV's first year? You sure?

I remember a lot of sacks, INT's, and Holmes didn't even really come on until about week 4 or so...

Positive.

That team started 1-6 and finished 6-10. They didn't know how to use Priest until the Redskins game.

If you want to get into serious stats like those that OTWP broke out, here's a link:

http://www.databasefootball.com/team...lg=NFL&yr=2001

mikey23545 · 10-05-2009, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pestilence

That onside kick to open the second half was ****ing reeruned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCUnited

We are going to keep doing it until we get it right.

Haley's trying to send a message.

**Rausch** · 10-05-2009, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg in kc

They've played three teams that may contend for this year's superbowl, two of them on the road. That's not the September 2008 versions of New England, Oakland, Atlanta and Denver. Yeah, I'm shocked that they don't look worlds better.

As far as the 2001 comparison goes, that team was 1-3 at this point and had only shown the flashes of the offense to come in later years against the Redskins. Priest Holmes would have less than 250 yards rushing in four games, with 150 of that coming against Washington a week ago. And yesterday's game would have been highlighted by TrINT Green, as we knew him then, tossing four picks to Deltha O'Neal.

Ahh, the good ol' days.

There were still some flashes. Not many, things did not look good, but Holmes did make one wonder.

I think with the (limited) talent this team has we should run the ball (and no, not 5 draw/shotgun handoff plays in a row) and use playaction. Our WR's are sub-par, our o line is teh sukh, and our QB is new to everything here.

Instead we're running a spread/pistol-similar offense 1/2 the time...

**DaneMcCloud** · 10-05-2009, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg in kc

They've played three teams that may contend for this year's superbowl, two of them on the road. That's not the September 2008 versions of New England, Oakland, Atlanta and Denver. Yeah, I'm shocked that they don't look worlds better.

As far as the 2001 comparison goes, that team was 1-3 at this point and had only shown the flashes of the offense to come in later years against the Redskins. Priest Holmes would have less than 250 yards rushing in four games, with 150 of that coming against Washington a week ago. And yesterday's game would have been highlighted by TrINT Green, as we knew him then, tossing four picks to Deltha O'Neal.

Ahh, the good ol' days.

I hated Vermeil's tenure. But you wanna see something really sick?

3-13 (75) - Eric Downing, Syracuse, DT
3-15 (77) - Marvin Minnis, Florida State, WR
4-12 (107) - Monty Beisel, Kansas State, DE
4-13 (108) - George Layne, Texas Christian, RB
5-10 (141) - Billy Baber, Virginia, TE
5-19 (150) - Derrick Blaylock, Stephen F. Austin, RB
6-13 (176) - Alex Sulfsted, Miami (OH), G
7-12 (212) - Shaunard Harts, Boise State, DB
7-43 (243) - Terdell Sands, Chattanooga, DT

The ONLY guy still in the league, including Vermeil and Green. is Terdell Sands.

That is just downright pathetic.

**DaneMcCloud** · 10-05-2009, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rausch

There were still some flashes. Not many, things did not look good, but Holmes did make one wonder.

I think with the (limited) talent this team has we should run the ball (and no, not 5 draw/shotgun handoff plays in a row) and use playaction. Our WR's are sub-par, our o line is teh sukh, and our QB is new to everything here.

Instead we're running a spread/pistol-similar offense 1/2 the time...

IMO, the Chiefs should be running the spread 90% of the time, excluding goal line situations.

This line sucks ass and The Spread at least gives Cassel a chance to complete passes.

keg in kc · 10-05-2009, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rausch

There were still some flashes. Not many, things did not look good, but Holmes did make one wonder.

I think with the (limited) talent this team has we should run the ball (and no, not 5 draw/shotgun handoff plays in a row) and use playaction. Our WR's are sub-par, our o line is teh sukh, and our QB is new to everything here.

Instead we're running a spread/pistol-similar offense 1/2 the time...

I don't think going pro-set or I-formation would work any better. Cox isn't very good and we don't have a tight end who can block worth a shit. And I don't think they'd slow down the pass rush an iota on playaction unless the running plays started to actually work.

10-05-2009, 01:50 PM
OnTheWarpath15 MVP Join Date: Sep 2005 Casino cash: $2021115	At the Quarter Mark: Better or Worse? After the Haley hire, you couldn't throw a stick through this place without hitting someone that made the following comment: "We'll be a better team based on coaching alone," or, "we'll win X amount of games due to coaching alone." Yes, it's only been 4 games, and this is NOT a call for Haley's head - but is deserved criticism of the way he's prepared this team over the first 4 games of the regular season. Also, IN NO WAY is the following an endorsement of Herman Edwards. What it is, however, is a giant red flag - this team - of which 60% has been handpicked by Pioli and Haley - is actually worse in almost all statistical categories when compared to the 2008 team after 4 games - which many here claimed were the darkest days of last season. We'll call it, B.S. - or, Before Spread. Offensively (bolded number is 2009 totals): 1st downs: (63) (62) 3rd down conversions: (25/62 - 40%) (9/51 - 18%) Total yards: (1145) (986) Rushing yards: (554) (406) Passing yards: (591) (580) Sacks Allowed: (12) (13) Penalties/Yardage: (10/109) 29/230 Scoring: (16.25 PPG) (16 PPG) Not a single category in which we've improved over 2008, which happened to include going through 3 QB's - playing the 3rd stringer in 2 of the 4. Defensively: 1st downs allowed: (74) (85) 3rd down conversions against: (25/54 - 46%) (25/58 - 43%) Total yards allowed: (1517) (1516) Rushing yards allowed: (706) (514) Passing yards allowed: (811) (1002) Sacks: (3) (5) Points allowed: (24.25 PPG) (28 PPG) Turnover margin: (+2) (Even) Yea! 2 more sacks! And nice to see the 192 yard improvement from the rush defense, only to see 191 of it be given back up by the pass defense. The 2008 team was apparently so bad that management felt the need to purge 30 players, yet is playing worse with a roster that is 60% their handpicked players? What message are you trying to send, Todd? It seems like it changes on a weekly **ing basis. As someone who predicted a 3 win season, the losses aren't surprising me. The way we are losing, after hearing the phrase, "we're going to be a big, strong, fast, smart, tough, disciplined football team" IS surprising me. There is no improvement over the "Dark Ages" of last season in ANY of those areas. And there's no excuse for it, especially the lack of discipline. Make 'em run some more, Todd - it seems to be working... Enough excuses - enough with the "messages" - enough petty bullshit sitting players - time to see some *ing improvement. Not necessarily wins. IMPROVEMENT. Last edited by OnTheWarpath15; 10-05-2009 at 05:47 PM..*
Posts: 60,758

10-05-2009, 03:31 PM	#61
cdcox www.nfl-forecast.com Join Date: Sep 2000 Casino cash: $-648231	We are getting worse at a slower rate than we were before. Therefore, we are near the bottom and will be improving soon. Seriously, the roster was so bad that I'm giving Pioli/Haley 2 full years of free ride. I also don't think they got the benefit of a full off season because of the lateness in which the staff was assembled (I blame Clark and his insistence to evaluate Herm Edwards for that). I won't try to determine if we are on the right track until regular season of 2011. My major gripe so far is Cassel over Sanchez.
Posts: 46,037

10-05-2009, 03:53 PM	#67
keg in kc oxymoron Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: OP/KC/Whatever Casino cash: $9556299	They've played three teams that may contend for this year's superbowl, two of them on the road. That's not the September 2008 versions of New England, Oakland, Atlanta and Denver. Yeah, I'm shocked that they don't look worlds better. As far as the 2001 comparison goes, that team was 1-3 at this point and had only shown the flashes of the offense to come in later years against the Redskins. Priest Holmes would have less than 250 yards rushing in four games, with 150 of that coming against Washington a week ago. And yesterday's game would have been highlighted by TrINT Green, as we knew him then, tossing four picks to Deltha O'Neal. Ahh, the good ol' days.
Posts: 58,682